Child Psych Podcast Episode #128

[Tania Johnson] Hello and welcome to the Child Psych Podcast. And I’m Tania. 

[Tammy] I’m Tammy.

[Tania] We’re registered psychologists, registered play therapists, founders of the Institute of Child Psychology, and most importantly, mums who are here today to talk about the great debate surrounding sleepovers.

[Tammy] Yeah, I mean, we have kids that range anywhere from—hold on, how old? Six, 10?

[Tania]  Yep, mine is six—nearly seven. Don’t get that wrong—nearly seven.

[Tammy] Nearly seven, all the way up to 17. So I think at this point, we’re right in the thick of either considering sleepovers or starting to host them at our home. And you know, this is something we’ve talked about on social media a bit, and I thought it would make a really good podcast topic for parents who are thinking it through. We’re here to kind of play both angles so parents can make the decision that feels right for their family. We’re not saying we’re anti- or pro-sleepover—we’re just going to share the facts and perspectives. If you decide to be anti-sleepover, that’s totally fine. And if you’re leaning toward being pro-sleepover, we’ll talk about how to do that safely, if that’s what your family decides to go with.

[Tania] Yeah, it’s so interesting. I’m going to give away my age here, but as an 80s baby, there was no debate about sleepovers. At a certain point, you just got invited to a friend’s house, and you went over for a sleepover. Now, I think for parents, there’s so much tension around it—Should I? Shouldn’t I? Am I a good parent if I do? Am I a bad parent if I don’t? There’s just a lot of pressure around this topic.

[Tammy] Yeah, and I think there are definitely pros and cons. I mean, in the age of social media, we know so much more than we did back then. Our parents were doing the best they could, but when I think of some of the sleepovers I had—dear Lord—we were definitely doing things we shouldn’t have been doing. And my parents didn’t know the other parents at all. Like, I don’t even think they could’ve told you their first names. They just knew the address, had me call when I got there, and then call again when it was time to be picked up in the morning. But now, with social media and increased awareness, there’s just so much more information about what could go wrong. So I think we can talk about that a little—and also share some things I’ve put in place because I do have one kiddo who’s doing sleepovers now. We can chat about how that works. When we think about sleepovers, there are definitely some pros. And I think pro-sleepover parents often say things like, You can’t control everything, or Sleepovers were one of the best parts of my childhood. And I get that—I have so many great memories from sleepovers that I wouldn’t want to discount. But I also got into a lot of trouble at sleepovers as a teenager. Nothing abusive, thankfully, but definitely situations that weren’t great—bullying, sneaking out, that kind of stuff. It’s that herd mentality that kicks in when kids are in a group. Even hosting sleepovers at my house now, I notice a very different vibe when it’s a group versus just one or two kids. It’s louder, it’s wilder—it’s just a different energy. My husband picked up on it, too, when we hosted a sleepover for my daughter’s birthday. We’ll talk about how we structured that, but yeah, I think another argument in favor of sleepovers is that they allow kids to see how other households operate. They experience different cultures, different routines—it can help them become more adaptable. If a child is a little anxious or has trouble with separation, sleepovers can be a way to practice doing hard things. It’s a gentle way to build resilience and independence. So yeah, I do think there are benefits. And I want to make sure we’re not criticizing parents who choose to allow sleepovers—just having an honest conversation. Can you think of any other pros? I want to make sure we’re offering a balanced perspective.

Sleepovers Through Parents’ Eyes

[Tania] Absolutely. I think the biggest thing that stands out for me is probably the resilience of it. You know, it’s kind of like, I did it. I was able to spend the whole night. I immersed myself in somebody else’s family—which is also, like you said, about culture, family, and all those things. Immersing yourself in different experiences. I think, very often as a society, we’ve become quite segregated and individualized. This is what we do, this is our family, without actually asking, How does the rest of the world work? What does dinnertime look like in someone else’s family? What does bedtime look like in someone else’s house? And I think our children really benefit from being exposed to different ways of doing things. That exposure becomes part of their personality and their understanding of the world. When we protect too much, when we hold too closely, we run the risk of having our children live in little boxes—without enough exposure to the world. So I think there’s a beautiful amount of exposure that comes from sleepovers. And then there’s also the resilience of waking up the next morning and saying, I did it. I spent the whole night. I learned a lot of new things. And now I’m back with my family and that’s wonderful. But I did something hard, something that was probably quite scary. So I see those two things—the exposure and resilience as the biggest pros of having kids sleep out.

[Tammy] Yeah, absolutely. And I think before we go any further just so you know I’m okay with sleepovers. And Tan, are you on the anti side, or just not ready yet? Like, where are you right now?

[Tania] Yeah, yeah. No, we’re definitely not a sleepover family right now. But that might be shifting a little, and I want to talk to parents about that too. But for now, we’re still on the no sleepovers side.

[Tammy] Yeah, we just passed the threshold where we’re considering it. My daughter is 11, so that’s when we started thinking about it seriously. But we did allow her to have sleepovers at age 9—in our home, if that makes sense. And we’ll talk about what that looked like, and the families we knew really well that made us feel comfortable doing that. But just so you know—this is a no-judgment zone. Tania and I do things a little differently, and that’s okay. When it comes to the cons—which we’ll talk about next—how I’ve decided to navigate them is by educating myself as much as I can, to prevent any harm to the kids. That came at a cost to my sleep, most of the time.

Rethinking Sleepovers for Safer and Happier Childhood Moments

[Tania] You know, when the girls were younger, we actually had a close family friend, and we did do a couple of sleepovers. They were little—probably around four and six—and they actually slept over there twice. The second time, Uno called us at 10 o’clock at night and said, “Mom, I just don’t want to do sleepovers anymore. Please don’t make me do any more.” And we took a step back. It was definitely too early. So we paused sleepovers for the time being.

[Tammy] Yeah, and I mean, we had some when the kids were younger too, but mostly with cousins and close family—grandparents and things like that. That felt a little different, right? But now we’re talking about sleepovers with other families, not aunts, uncles, or grandparents. We’re talking more about families within our communities. And what really comes up for me is safety. I know a lot of parents who are against sleepovers say things like, “You never really know what’s going on behind closed doors,” or “I don’t trust my kids with adults I don’t personally know well.” And honestly, that’s legitimate. We don’t always know the level of supervision in someone else’s home. We might not even know who’s living there. Are there older kids in the house? Teenagers? We think about things like alcohol, drugs, screens—we just don’t know. Both Tania and I are pretty pragmatic, and we have a lot of boundaries around screens and the internet. We don’t know the rules in other homes—whether kids have access to pornography, social media—our kids don’t have social media. That’s definitely something I’ve considered. Also, some kids just aren’t ready to be away all night, and we might inadvertently push them into something they’re not prepared for like Tania said, they get homesick, and you end up picking them up at 11 p.m. There’s just a lot to consider. What are your thoughts on all that?

[Tania] Yeah, for me, there are a few big things. The first one is just protecting our kids. That’s the priority. The second is technology. Like you mentioned, Tammy, we have pretty tight rules around tech. And we know that the average age of exposure to online pornography is about 11 years old now. I just want to know what my children are being exposed to. I want to have that control. The moment we open up the possibility of a sleepover, that’s hours and hours where we don’t have access to our children, and we don’t know what the supervision really looks like—even if we’ve asked the right questions, which we’ll talk about soon. It’s still too long for me to feel comfortable at this point. And the third thing is attachment. I really think children need to be ready to spend that amount of time away from family. I believe they can still have all the fun and joy of childhood experiences without necessarily staying the whole night. Something we’ve started doing at home is allowing the girls to stay until bedtime. Like recently, Maya brought her pajamas and toothbrush to her friend’s house. She got ready for bed there—pajamas on, teeth brushed and then I picked her up right at bedtime. They had such a fun time—without the pressure of staying the night.

Understanding Sleepover Readiness and Safety Conversations

[Tammy] Absolutely. One of the things we did was a podcast and a summit interview about a month and a half ago—maybe longer, I can’t remember exactly. Regardless, one of the things I learned—and I knew this was an issue being a trauma therapist because a lot of the sexual trauma I have worked with over the years has been peer-to-peer, meaning it’s not adults abusing kids, but peers, like friends, enacting sexual things with one another. Back in 1992, only about 40% of sexual abuse was peer-to-peer; the other 60% was adult-to-child. But by 2022, that statistic shifted to 70% peer-to-peer. So, if children are sexually abused, it’s more likely to be from a minor child than from an adult. When I think about sleepovers, and having worked with kids who have gone to sleepovers where this kind of thing has happened, it makes me really nervous as a parent knowing that statistic. Honestly, I didn’t know the numbers until we did that interview, and then it made sense—it matches what we see in the clinic. When I supervise clinicians at the Sexual Assault Center, this is what they’re seeing too. It’s often other kids doing this—whether at daycares, sleepovers, or even during recess at school. So, I think parents need to be very, very aware. Before even considering a sleepover, we have to talk about tricky people, boundaries, and body safety. There are so many things that have to happen as a preemptive measure so kids feel comfortable and understand these topics. We’ve had to talk about pornography, online safety, and so many other things if we’re going to launch our kids into this world.

[Tania] And Tammy, I think those conversations often come up when we talk about social media and the right age to start sleepovers, right? Parents often ask, and unfortunately, the blurry answer is—it’s going to be different for every child. I think part of the reason is that we need to have these conversations with our kids and keep that dialogue open, so we can see that they’re understanding, thinking, and asking questions. Obviously, very little kids aren’t ready for those bigger conversations, but once we can start having them and see that our kids are actually integrating those ideas—not just hearing a lecture but really engaging—I think that’s a sign they’re ready for sleepovers. They know where they are, what their boundaries are, when to call mom, and what isn’t right. When they’re very little, it’s obviously much harder for them to understand and integrate these conversations.

Navigating the Challenges of Sleepovers: Setting Boundaries and Building Trust

[Tammy] Okay, so I think, I mean, for me, this is just personal. I was most comfortable when I had some control over the sleepovers. This was just me — it was going to be at my house, and that’s how it was for the last two years with a very select couple of kids where I knew the parents. I have spent time with the parents, I know their values, I know their rules around screens, and even though they’re in my home, I like to know what kind of child this is. I’ve spent time with them. I can see how they interact with my other kids. So, just to put myself in the driver’s seat so I could ensure safety, it started with the kids coming to my house. And when I am hosting for my 11-year-old, which isn’t often, but it does happen, I have this really concrete rule — which happens whenever any child comes to play at my house — if they have a device, whether it’s a phone or an iPad, we actually lock them up from the time they come to our house until the time they leave. And then if they want to, you know, I have their parents’ phone number, so if they want to call their parents, they can. They just have to come tell me, and I’ll check in with them. But locking up devices was really important to me because I just don’t know what they have access to. I also do not allow kids to sleep in bedrooms or play in bedrooms with the door closed. So even if it’s like a playdate, they are not to be in small rooms with the door closed. That is a hard no for me. Now, my 17-year-old is a little different — if she has friends over, she’s almost 18 — like she can have friends over with the door closed. Maybe not her boyfriend. However, friends I don’t worry about as much. So that is a big one. They can play in the backyard, the living room, the basement, but there is no going into rooms with doors closed. And if they’re going to spend the night, we always do a check-in to make sure, like, “Do you want to call mom? How are you feeling? Do you need anything?” And I would pull that child away separately, not in front of other kids, whether it’s a group or even with my daughter, for example. There’s a check-in to make sure they’re feeling okay. And it’s okay. I let them know it’s okay if they want to go home — they just have to let me know. Mom and dad won’t be upset. We’ve already talked about it.

[Tania] I love all of those. Those are all things that, obviously, you said, you can control in your own home as you start to consider, at around 11 or 12, having your kid maybe sleep at a select few other people’s houses. How are you navigating those conversations?

[Tammy] Very awkwardly. I have had the most awkward conversations with parents over the last two months, especially after we did that one podcast interview. I think I’ve said no to a lot of parents actually because I don’t know them, and they’ve asked, “Can my kid — don’t even come over for a playdate?” and I simply don’t know these parents. I’m like, no, but she can come here, and then I have to explain why. Simply, I need to spend time with those families. I want to know what kind of rules they have in their house. I’ve talked, you know, had them over for coffee or a glass of wine, and I’ll ask them about, you know, screen time use. I’ll ask them about, like, where do the kids, you know, if you were to have a sleepover, where are the kids sleeping? What are your rules around bedtime? Like, where are devices stored, if they’re even stored somewhere? I’m trying to think what else we’ve done with those other families. I’ve asked how old the siblings are. So if we have, there’s a teenager in the home, how old are they? Because I’m a little more concerned about adolescents than I am about younger ones. Doesn’t mean it can’t happen, but if we’re looking at the risk of any sexual abuse, it’s more likely to happen with a child who’s a little bit older. So that’s something I’m considering. The thing I think I’m missing here, but questions I’m asking parents — yeah, definitely the sleeping arrangements, the bedrooms, the tech, alcohol. Guns are another one. I live in a rural area, so I actually want to know if they have guns in the home and where those guns are, if they have them, and if they’re locked up. So that’s definitely something to consider for kids.

[Tania] Yeah, yeah. And what I love about that is how mindful it is of those steps into sleepovers at other people’s homes, without just saying, “Okay, you’re 11 or you’re 12,” and then having a quick phone call with the mom. We’re really taking this slowly because part of that, too, is that you start to build a village of people who are helping raise your child together. So having a few close friends makes sense — where we go, “Okay, this is a family I know and trust, they have similar values to us.” I can have these awkward conversations, and then they feel free to have those awkward conversations with me. But I’m giving my child some wings, just very slowly and very cautiously.

[Tammy] Yeah, and I think a couple of moms in particular and I have had these conversations, and they’re like, “My gosh, I didn’t even think of that.” Like, we’ve had kids over, and I never thought to do that. We’ve brainstormed other ideas of what we could do if our kids are going to participate in this. So that’s really something that has come out of this. It’s been really good. I think if any parents are following this and want to do this, the more we start talking about it — mentioning things like sexual abuse, access to pornography, and so on — some parents just simply haven’t thought of it. They’re not bad parents; it’s just off the radar because it’s not something we had to worry about when we were young. Tan and I are just immersed in this world. So I think it’s really good, and I hope you can take this and pass on these conversations to families who might be considering this.

[Tania] Yeah, I think too, if a family is defensive when we’re asking these questions, it’s probably a sign that it’s not a good fit for a sleepover anyway. And I would rather deal with feeling a little uncomfortable than send my child and have this feeling of dread all night, thinking, “Did I make a terrible decision?”

[Tammy] Yeah. We did a sleepover recently for my daughter’s 11th birthday. We had six girls over — and we just didn’t sleep. Our rules were: one, the devices were locked up, and two, they were sleeping in the living room. Our bedroom is right above in an open concept, so anything that’s happening, we can hear it. So, if you’re going to take this approach with kids sleeping in a common area, you have to be prepared to keep getting up and checking on them because they’re going to get silly and not want to sleep. Some kids decided to go outside at midnight, and we had to bring them back in because we live in the country and they were out with flashlights. Again, if you’re going to do this, you have to be prepared to not get any sleep that night especially when they’re younger — and keep checking on the kids. It’s the same with the other parents in our circle. They know that if this happens, we’re basically getting two to three hours of sleep if we’re committed to making sure it’s safe for the kids, and that they’re actually staying in the living room — not sneaking out, not going into bedrooms, not running outside. I think parents should know this is what they’re getting into, and some might just not want to do it at all. So that might be something to consider, because I know it’s a big commitment when we decide to do this.

[Tania] Yeah, and I think the other thing I would say to parents is that it’s kind of what we see with technology — very often, parents start off with these boundaries around technology, and then they just dissipate over time. I think these questions are so important, and what worries me a little bit is that we might start off with them when our child is, let’s say, 11 and ready for that. We start off with these questions, but then it just sort of integrates and dissipates, and finally, we’re not doing them at all. So if this is something we’re going to do, let’s hold on, irrespective of whether they are 11, 13, or 15. If we’re telling our child we’re going to do this, let’s do it with a lot of care — and let’s keep that care there.

[Tammy] When we were developing the handout for parents on sleepovers, one of the things you mentioned that was really good was giving a child an exit strategy and then role-playing the “what ifs.” So, if your kiddo is going to someone’s house, they need to know how to get out of it if they’re not comfortable or if something happens. What does that look like? Is it something you have to say in code to the host that other kids would understand? Can they just ask for their device to call, or ask the parent? I mean, my kid wouldn’t take a device, but they would have to ask the parent if they could call me. And then you said role-playing the “what ifs.” What if another child sneaks a device? What do you do? What if someone makes you uncomfortable? What would you do? Actually play it with them. What would you say to that person? What does that look like? Have them actually do it.

[Tammy] Hypothetically, like, pretend you’re that other child.

[Tania] Huge — and what a beautiful practice, right? Because kids are going to come up against these things. It might not even be the sleepover, but I think sleepovers provide the perfect situation for us to say: There are a number of different sticky situations in the world. Let’s try this out together. What would this look like? What does it feel like? What would we say in these kinds of situations?

[Tammy] And I think lastly, just before we end, trust your gut. If something doesn’t feel right, just trust it. It’s not worth the risk. We have that intuitive feeling for a reason. I know there have been families I’ve met where I’ve been like, nope. And I can’t even tell you exactly why I can’t put my finger on it. I’m just like, nope, not okay with that. That child is welcome to come to my house for a playdate during the day when I’m home, but we’re not going over there. There’s something off, and I just never… maybe as a psychologist, you could put your finger on it, but for this podcast’s sake, there’s just something off — my Spidey senses go up and I’m like, I don’t like this. It’s an awkward conversation to have with those parents, to say no to them and not really have a big reason other than “we prefer to know families really well, and we prefer playdates to happen at our home.” You might not be the most liked parent on the block after that, but it’s about our kids.

[Tania] And I’d just finish off by saying not all rules have to be forever. Sometimes families say, “We said no sleepovers,” but maybe things shift over time. So with our goals, we always say for right now, we don’t do sleepovers. It’s okay to shift as we get more information and figure out how we feel best letting our kids navigate the sleepover world.

[Tammy] Alright everyone, thank you so much for joining us for this week’s podcast. We hope that was really helpful and you feel more prepared if you’re deciding to jump into the sleepover world — or maybe you feel really good about your no, and that’s okay too. Whatever works best for you and your family is the direction you need to go. We hope we gave you some information to make an informed decision about that.

[Tania] Thank you everyone.