Child Psych Podcast Episode #119

[Tammy Schamuhn] Hello everyone, and welcome to the Child Psych Podcast. My name is Tammy Schamuhn, and I’m a registered child psychologist. I’m the co-founder of the Institute of Child Psychology, and I’m also a mom to three amazing kids. We are so grateful to have Eileen Henry with us today to talk about everything sleep-related, whether you have an infant or a toddler. I am so lucky to be out of that phase with my kids now, but I remember being deeply entrenched in it when they were younger. I am fully on board with your approach to sleep, and I am thrilled to share this discussion with everyone today. To start, I will do a quick introduction of Eileen before diving into the podcast with a question. After that, we’ll go into my interview questions. Eileen Henry is an RIE® Associate (Resources for Infant Educarers®) and a member of the International Association of Child Sleep Consultants. She is a pioneer in the field of sleep specialization and has helped families across the globe find peaceful sleep for over two decades. She is the author of the book “The Compassionate Sleep Solutions” and is a highly sought-after keynote speaker. Her sleep program is rooted in the RIE® approach and regulatory theory, emphasizing that sleep is a side effect of a nurturing environment, secure attachment, and a regulated nervous system. Eileen has shared her expertise with local hospitals and pediatricians around the world. Thank you so much for joining me today, Eileen!

[Eileen Henry] Oh, my pleasure. Thank you.

[Tammy] Yeah, I really enjoyed your book. When we talked, I had read through it yesterday morning in the early hours of the morning.

[Eileen] Oh my gosh.

[Tammy] I was just like, “Yeah, parents need to read this stuff. This is wonderful.” We’ll talk about the other approaches as well. I just really am on board, especially in terms of you talking about attachment and the parents’ regulation—how that feeds so much into the kiddo’s nervous system. That’s very aligned with our organization, so superb.

[Eileen] Great. It was the hardest part for me, for sure.

[Tammy] Okay. So let’s start off with a listener question, and then we’ll dive into your book. Hopefully, our listeners will take some key takeaways home, but they can always either coach with you or check out your book to get all the strategies. We’re going to go over an outline, but here’s a question we had:

Question:

Hi, Eileen. I’m a new mom, and I feel like I’m going crazy from lack of sleep. My daughter is 5 months old, and I’m trying to get her to sleep in her own crib instead of the bed with us. I want a secure attachment with my child, so I don’t want to let her cry it out. But I also need to sleep because I feel like I’m completely checked out for my child. How can I prioritize my sleep without harming my relationship with my daughter?

[Tammy] I feel that as a mom. I remember transitioning from co-sleeping to his bedroom—it’s such a horrible feeling when they’re used to you being there and then you’re not there.

[Eileen] Yes, and at five months, there’s still an authentic need for food during the night. Probably one feeding during the night, unless the child has self-weaned. Some four- or five-month-olds start sleeping through the night and no longer need food, but most five-month-olds still need one feeding. One thing you can do is, you don’t have to transition your child to another room. You could transition your child to a bassinet or a co-sleeper. That might feel better than putting your baby in a completely separate room. At five months, a baby has some understanding of object permanence, but they haven’t fully developed it yet, which happens around the seventh or eighth month. Object permanence helps them understand that when we’re not there, we don’t cease to exist. So, transitioning into a crib because your baby is used to being all warm and cozy next to you, it’s important to consider what I call sleep crutches. Sleep crutches are anything we use to help the child fall asleep, like nursing, rocking, holding, or touching them until they fall asleep. Crutches are wonderful—they’re helpful, and we use them until we no longer need them. A five-month-old can start learning to fall asleep at the onset of the night on that still, silent surface of a co-sleeper. When we’re doing all this facilitation for newborns, transitioning them to sleep on their own can be disorienting. At five months, I’d first ask how your baby’s Moro reflexes? Has it integrated into the nervous system yet? Some babies still have more integration to do. If your baby still has the startle reflex, it’ll be harder because every time you place them down, they might startle awake. Is it a boy or a girl? I didn’t catch that. Every time you put your baby in the bassinet and they start to drift off, the Moro reflex may kick in. Swaddling can help at this stage unless your baby has started rolling over. Once they’re rolling, swaddling isn’t safe anymore. In that case, a sleep sack can help. It gives them that sense of coziness and a little bit of weight. I’m not a fan of weighted sleep sacks unless an occupational or physical therapist has specifically recommended them. Not all babies like weight on their bodies.

Creating a Comfortable Sleep Environment

[Tammy] Honestly, I used a sleep sack with my son—not a weighted one, just one that varied depending on the material and the time of year. I live in Canada, and in the winter, we used a really thick material, while in the summer, it was very light. Honestly, he used sleep sacks until he was four or five years old.

[Eileen] I did the same.

[Tammy] He used to kick the blanket off all the time, but he liked the feeling of being snug. That said, he hated being swaddled.

[Eileen] Mine did, too! I would zip up that sleep sack, and he would just kind of relax into it. There’s something about it—it feels cuddly and snug, almost like being wrapped or held. I would recommend transitioning by moving the bassinet to the foot of the bed. This can create a little separation from the sensory input of our presence, such as our breathing, smell, and the fact that we’re right there. Now, when you do this, your baby is going to start to cry. This is when an incremental process can help. You can soothe, touch, and regulate them before stepping away. Sit nearby in a chair so you’re close enough to respond. If you decide to put your baby in another room, some parents use a walk-in closet as the first nursery. They leave the door slightly open so they can attend to the baby easily.

[Tammy] I actually did that once on vacation with my son. We rented a lake house, and I didn’t want to put him in another room since it was a strange house. So, I put him in the walk-in closet. That way, I could get up and be right there.

The Pick-Up-Put-Down Method

[Eileen] Closet babies—I love them! Exactly. It worked out perfectly. I’ve even seen families turn walk-in closets into little bedrooms by adding a gate and a mattress. It becomes a cozy little child cave. When you put the baby down and they start crying, that’s where discernment as a parent comes in. I go over this more in my book, as you read. You need to recognize how much struggle your baby can handle. If the crying escalates and becomes intense, pick up, soothe, reset, and then put them back down. There’s a method called the pick-up-put-down method. While effective, it can be a little overstimulating for some babies. Instead, I suggest a middle ground letting them fuss a bit before intervening but never leaving them to wail uncontrollably. If the crying reaches an intensity of 10 on a scale of 1 to 10, the baby needs co-regulation. Pick them up, reset, and then try again.

[Tammy] When my son, who is our youngest, was little, I noticed that listening and observing made all the difference. We co-slept for a long time, and he slept in our room for a while, so this was around six or seven months in. I started to notice the difference in his cries. There was the panicked cry, which required immediate attention, but there was also a little fussy cry right before he’d fall asleep. I realized that if I waited for just a minute, that little fuss often resolved on its own, and he would fall asleep. It wasn’t a full-on cry, let alone one lasting 30 minutes. It was just one or two minutes of fussing, and then he was asleep. That’s exactly what I’m talking about—the difference between wailing and fussing. Right, I could tell the difference.

[Eileen] Exactly. I call it the difference between struggle and suffering. Children cry for many reasons. Sometimes they’re tired and just feel crummy, but they don’t know they feel that way because they’re tired. They only know they feel bad and look to us to fix it.

[Tammy] My 16-year-old doesn’t understand that yet. We’re like, “You need to go to bed. You’re cranky.” And she says, “I’m not tired.”

[Eileen] It takes a while to learn that. It really does. And we want them to learn that.

Understanding Different Cries and When to Respond

[Tammy] Absolutely. So, what I’m hearing is—and we’ll talk about a couple of the other methods that are quite popular—is that this isn’t about letting them cry it out. It’s about understanding the different kinds of cries. I know you have a method in your book that discusses tracking those cries, understanding and listening to the cycle. You also have a little guide for parents to follow to understand the trajectory of the crying process—when it might be time to intervene and when it’s better to wait a little.

[Eileen] Just to step back and wait—maybe a minute, maybe two, or maybe three—and come and go because babies do recognize that. Your five-month-old can recognize you coming and going. There are certain markers I like to make sure are in place first. One of them is that the baby can see further than a foot. They’re tracking people from across the room, smiling, cooing, and engaging. They’re starting to become highly relational. They coo back and forth and smile. They also show that their Moro reflex is integrated. There are a few other markers, though I don’t remember if I included them in my book. But those markers indicate that the self-soothing mechanism is at least online once these relational aspects of development start to emerge.

[Tammy] Beautiful.

[Eileen] Especially when they’re tracking across the room—they can see people coming and going. If they have an older sibling, particularly a toddler, there’s no one better to learn object permanence from because toddlers are everywhere, all at once. They’re in and out, and babies can hear them in another room or even down the street. It’s great.

[Tammy] Yeah, well, a lot of this comes down to stages of development because you’re talking about reflexes. I remember when my son was little, one of my friends—thank goodness for her infinite wisdom—recommended an app called The Wonder Weeks. With it, I could track what was happening developmentally based on his age. He’d be sleeping well for a month, and then suddenly, he’d stop sleeping. I’d be like, “What? What am I doing wrong as a parent?” You start spiraling, feeling shame and panic. And then, I’d check the app and see that this was just part of what was happening in his brain development. Of course, he was having a lot of wiring activity at that stage. It made sense why he wasn’t sleeping. I could relax, realizing nothing was wrong with him, and I wasn’t a bad mom.

[Eileen] Right? You could step back and let it happen. It’s all good news that they’re waking up—their brain is waking up. There’s a lot of wiring happening, a lot of skills being learned. It’s like a bloom—they open up and wake up. Sometimes, that happens in the middle of the night.

[Tammy] Yeah, it’s humbling. We don’t get to decide when the brain does its work. A lot of development happens during sleep, and many people don’t realize that. That’s the time when the brain wires up and assimilates all the information learned during the day.

[Eileen] Yes, it does.

[Tammy] If they’re practicing and learning lots of new things, the brain works to organize those neural connections. And kids are like, “Oh, I’m awake now—thanks, brain. Thanks for doing that.”

[Eileen] It’s true. The crib at night is one of the busiest places in the house.

[Tammy] Yes! I found it interesting in your book how you normalized the extent of brain growth in those first two years. One of the stats you shared was fascinating. By five years old, 95% of brain development is done, but a baby is only born with 25% of its brain mass. By the time they’re two, that increases to 80%. Holy cow! Yeah, it’s a lot of change. It’s dynamic, and that kind of change causes sleep disruptions. Those are the leaps in development you talk about, where so much happens so quickly.

[Eileen] Yes. And when we take big leaps in development, even throughout our lives (hopefully we keep developing our whole lives), the brain and the body often go back to what they already know and practice those skills again to incorporate them into new areas of learning. What can look like regressions isn’t truly a regression unless we frame it that way. I prefer to focus on the leap rather than the regression because we tend to follow what we focus on. If there is a regression, we can support it—perhaps providing more reassurance or attention. For instance, separation ambivalence or separation anxiety may appear as part of a regression and definitely needs addressing.

[Tammy] Absolutely. I appreciate how your book discusses not just the end goal—like getting children to sleep—but also what infants need throughout their day. Often, we get so focused on the problem of sleeplessness (“I need them to sleep because I need sleep!”) that we forget to investigate what other factors might be at play. Many tired parents are desperate for solutions, and understandably so. But your book highlights the many things children need throughout the day to create the conditions for good sleep. Could you talk about some of those areas that contribute to sleep hygiene?

[Eileen] Yes, absolutely. Sleep hygiene isn’t just about what happens at bedtime; it’s about how we structure the entire day. I like to start with the morning wake-up. In the RIE (Resources for Infant Educators) approach, we emphasize the importance of dependable, predictable routines built around the authentic needs of the child. I prefer routines to rigid schedules because schedules often teach children more about us than about themselves. By contrast, routines adapt to the child’s natural rhythms and needs. Most infants and toddlers naturally follow certain patterns at developmental stages. For example, wake windows between 6:00 and 7:00 a.m. are typical, though I recently learned that even 5:00 a.m. is considered a normal wake time for some children—a bit of a bummer for parents!

[Tammy] Early risers, like my son when he was younger, often reflect a genetic predisposition. My husband and I found this challenging because I’m not naturally an early riser. However, for parents who are, it might be less of a struggle.

[Eileen] Once the day begins, setting a dependable, predictable routine is key. Even very young infants are highly attuned to their environment, including both the physical space and the emotional tone of the relationships around them. For example, a simple routine for a five- or six-month-old might include waking, feeding, playing, having some downtime, and then napping. At this age, many babies will take three naps a day, and the last might be a shorter “swing nap” to prevent an overly early bedtime. The evening routine is especially important because it’s when the whole family comes together. Although it’s often the busiest time of day, I encourage families to create a ritual they look forward to. This might include turning off devices, connecting as a family, engaging in big body movements or active play, transitioning to dinner, and then winding down with books, baths, and finally bedtime. For young children, even six-month-olds, rituals are powerful. They are embodied learners, absorbing everything through physical care and repetition. It’s never too early to begin building these intimate, comforting routines. They’re not just beneficial for the child; they’re irresistible to them.

[Tammy] I remember when people, including my family, made fun of me for how strict I was about my son’s routine. He was such an early riser and super active, but it took him a long time to settle down and fall asleep. It was never quick for him. He was a good sleeper once he got there, but the process of getting him to sleep required a lot of effort. I would insist that we were home after dinner because there was a whole routine that needed to happen. He eventually settled, but the moment that routine was disrupted, everything would go off track. People would tell me, “You need to be more flexible. In Europe, they do things differently.” But I knew my son, and for him, the routine was essential. My daughters were different—they didn’t need the same structure—but for him, it was the only way to help him settle. Even now, he’s a kid who takes time to wind down.

[Eileen] Interestingly, my 23-year-old was exactly the same way when he was younger. Now, as an adult, he’s built that self-awareness into his life. He takes great care of himself because he values that part of his routine. He loves getting up early to go surfing or fly fishing, and he knows how important it is to give himself downtime. It’s really beautiful to see how he nurtures that part of himself. This is what I hope for other parents—to really tune in and get to know their children’s unique needs. When we take the time to meet those needs, it creates a sense of ease for both them and us. Over time, we can build something meaningful that we and our children look forward to. Our children can feel that connection and presence.

[Tammy] One of the things a parenting book I read emphasized was the importance of routine. Markers like food, love, play, and, of course, sleep are all part of a rhythm that helps children thrive. Routine is such a big part of this, along with tummy time, exploration, and attachment. I understand how hard it can be for working parents. Here in Canada, most moms have a year of maternity leave, but I know that’s not the case everywhere. I went to school in the States, and I know there are moms listening to this who only had three months—or even just three weeks—with their newborns. So, what can parents do to build that relationship despite time constraints?

[Eileen] I’d recommend focusing on evenings and weekends. Even the mornings can be valuable, especially if you’re breastfeeding. Those morning moments can be a time to connect deeply. If you feel like the quantity of time with your child is limited, focus on increasing the quality of the time you do have. When you come back together at the end of the day, be fully present. A lot of the RIE parenting philosophy, which was studied in Palo Alto, focuses on this idea. There was even a RIE daycare center where mothers would come early, stay for a little while, nurse their child, and help them transition into their day. They built a routine around the mother and child being present with each other in the morning. If you can work with your daycare provider to create a similar transition, it can be incredibly meaningful. Slow down, be present, and make that handoff a moment of connection. Children make meaning in their bodies before they do so with language. It’s the physical presence, the attunement, and the rhythm of coming together that matters most. On weekends, plan your time intentionally. A consistent routine gives children a sense of security—it helps them know what’s happening and what’s coming next.

[Tammy] That rhythm and predictability are so important for their development. It’s something even adults lean into. Whether your child is six months old or 14 years old, we all like to know what’s coming next. Without it, none of us do well.  It’s the devil you know and the devil you don’t. People like to be able to predict as much as they can because anything too novel can trigger the amygdala, signaling danger. We’re wired to pay attention to that, and then we experience cortisol flowing through our body because we’re meant to attune to any changes in our environment. It could be a saber-tooth tiger, an avalanche, or a forest fire. So, I think creating as much predictability as you’re talking about is really beneficial.

[Eileen] Predictability is really good. I think children are better at improv, and thank goodness for my children—they’ve made me way more flexible in my life. They tend to have a more novelty-seeking brain, and we can build that into rituals. For instance, something new could happen during a routine, which is great for toddlers. If we become too rote and predictable, toddlers often introduce something unexpected to make it interesting. That’s where we can invite novelty into the process—a new character in a story, or a butterfly we saw on a walk before dinner. Incorporating something like this into the bedtime story can really engage them and make the process more present and enjoyable. It can be very sweet.

Navigating Sleep Training Approaches for Your Child

[Tammy] Lovely, there were two approaches in your book that you mentioned. I think a lot of parents are moving away from the first, but it still exists: letting kids cry it out—what you referred to as “Ferberizing.” The second would be listening until they fall asleep. On the contrary, you do mention that the second method is okay for children aged zero to four. Perhaps you could walk us through why you recommend moving away from those approaches and what they entail.

[Eileen] Yes, so the Ferber method, or the “cry it out” method, is a classic timed approach, so it’s clock-driven. I personally prefer communication over relying on the clock. The clock is helpful because when your baby starts to cry—when my baby starts to cry—all my alarms went off. Five minutes felt like thirty-five minutes. My husband literally had to turn the clock around and say, “I’m dealing with the nap. I’ve got him.” He was going through the process while I was white-knuckling it and telling myself, “Okay, he’s fine. He’s with his daddy.” Afterward, he turned the clock around and asked, “How long do you think that was?” I said, “I don’t know, twenty-five minutes?” It was seven minutes long. That’s how distorted my perception became when the crying was happening. Classic “cry it out” is a timed approach: you let them cry for intervals like 5, 10, or 15 minutes. It works for some children—it’s fine and doesn’t harm attachment. There’s enough repair built into the attachment process through the day, with moments of connection, mismatch, repair, and reconnection, that it’s usually okay. Babies learn how to sleep. For some children, you touch sleep training once and never have to touch it again. However, some developmental milestones can disrupt sleep, and parents may find themselves resorting to “cry it out” every few months. I think some children aren’t ready to “cry it out”—the separation is too much, too fast, and it stresses their nervous system. Will that nervous system repair? Probably. But I don’t like the idea of a highly sensitive child being introduced to “cry it out” too young, potentially baking a little anxiety into the sleep process. Sleep is supposed to be beautiful and relaxing, right? I don’t like it when that happens. Many people come to me after trying “cry it out,” saying they just can’t do it again.

[Tammy] No, personally, I couldn’t do it. I mean, I also had the option of co-sleeping, which we can touch on if you’d like. So, I was like, “I want to do that.” When I breastfeed in the middle of the night, I sleep beautifully, and he sleeps beautifully. It’s fine. By the time he transitioned, there were times when there was some crying, but it wasn’t a lot. I think I always worried about attachment, probably like the mom who called in. I was like, “No, attachment, attachment, attachment. I need to do this.” Because I wouldn’t let him cry on his own during the day either. I would sit with him, stay in the room, and co-regulate. If that’s not an option for a mom, they can always look into other approaches. One method is called “Listen Until They Sleep.”

[Eileen] With this approach, you stay with them, listen to their expressions, soothe them, and remain present. Unfortunately, I call this the “stay and pay” method because our presence, over decades or even longer, inspires in our children a longing and desire for us to do something for them—nurturing and caring for them. For example, my kids know when they come home from college, I’ll do their laundry. Maybe not for their entire stay, but I’ll help them with it, cook for them, and take care of them. However, if they stay longer than a week, they need to start unloading the dishwasher and cleaning up the kitchen. When staying with children while they cry, the parent must remain very regulated to serve as an emotional anchor for the child. Being present with all their cries can be very grounding. As children grow older—into toddlerhood, and around ages 8, 9, and 10—they develop object permanence. Coming and going gives them a break from the constant longing and desire they feel when we’re present, especially if they’re standing in their crib crying at us. At this stage, children have enough language comprehension to benefit from a “dress rehearsal” before you start any new method. Have one last night where you talk them through the process. Walk them through what will happen before changing anything. They’re so embodied at this age, and even if they don’t understand every word, they pick up on our tone, body language, and facial expressions. This preparation makes a significant difference for children around 10, 11, and 12 months and even older toddlers. For toddlers, you can create an actual play scenario with lovies or characters to show them the change before it happens. Then, let them know, “You’re going to fall asleep in your crib, and this is what it will look like. I’ll come and go, or I’ll sit in this chair until you fall asleep.” The problem with staying in the chair until they fall asleep is that you need to clarify that once they’re asleep, you’ll go to your own bed. Otherwise, they may wake up in a panic when you’re not there. You have to explain that clearly to them. Of course, this might create some resistance. They might wake up saying, “Hey, get back in the chair!” That’s something you’ll need to work through. Staying present with them, whether through co-sleeping or other methods, is fine. I don’t think any of these approaches are make-or-break. If something isn’t working for you, it’s not the end of the world—you can always adjust. Magda Gerber once said, “We’re going to change what we’re doing with our children, hopefully many, many times as they develop. The key is to have the awareness to say, ‘I can’t or won’t do this anymore,’ and then look at the child and say, ‘Hey, I can’t do this anymore, but here’s what we’ll do instead.’” Involving them in the process and physicalizing the change makes a huge difference.

[Tammy] So, what I’m hearing from your approach is that it’s kind of like a game—you prepare beforehand, with a pregame, and then it’s go time. You talked about routines and rituals.

[Eileen] Yes, routine and ritual.

[Tammy] These are important to establish before bed and throughout the day, right?. Then, during “go time,” your approach involves a “come and go” method, is that correct?

[Eileen] Yes, exactly. We come and go, giving them some time and space instead of staying with them the whole time. Now, you can modify that. Kim West developed the chair method, where the chair is gradually moved out of the room. For some parents, though, listening to prolonged crying as they move the chair is difficult. This approach works well for younger children. One thing I want to mention is that Kim West clarified her method recently because there was a misunderstanding among sleep consultants. She emphasized that if you’re staying present, you need to stay connected. Don’t just sit there with a blank face or avoid looking at your baby. This replicates the still-face experiment, which can cause panic.

[Tammy] Absolutely. You mention that in your book, and I actually wrote it down. Let me find it… Oh, here it is:

“Please do not use the method of sitting stone-faced in the chair or turning your back to the child. This will freak your child out. Think about it—the cry is supposed to elicit a response. If you sit there with a blank face, you appear depressed or checked out, which is not good. It’s better to leave the room and come and go rather than remain non-responsive.”

Exactly! That kind of non-responsiveness is terrifying for children and can strain their nervous system for stress. For anyone interested, look up the still-face experiment on YouTube. I can’t even watch it myself, but I show it in my classes all the time. Edward Tronick conducted those experiments, and they’re very telling.

[Elieen] And yeah, he’s great—Edward Tronic. Yes. He recently wrote a new book, The Power of Discord: What Discord Teaches Us About Trust, Intimacy, and Resilience. He explains that there’s always going to be some level of mismatch in relationships. Our children will look at us, and our facial expressions or reactions won’t always match what they’re seeking. It’s just part of being human. That relational inevitability is going to happen. But we don’t want to create unnecessary discord where we don’t need to—it’s going to happen on its own. I think every time a parent chooses a need over a want, that’s a mismatch. It’s discord. But our children learn so much from it. And it’s a long learning process, maybe a 17-year journey to discern between a need and a want—possibly longer, maybe 30 years. My son jokes that we don’t really learn the difference until we have to start paying for things ourselves. That’s when it truly sinks in. I said, “Apparently, you need another surfboard.”

[Tammy] Yeah, With your approach—since we’re running a little short on time—would you say that when parents are engaging in this process, they should refer to the book for a step-by-step guide? Because I know people will ask, “How long do I need to stick with this? How long do I listen? How long do I have to wait?” What would you say to those parents?

[Eileen] I understand that. All of us who trained with Alan Shore at UCLA—who is possibly the premier attachment theorist in the United States, maybe even the world—would ask, “How long do we let them cry? How long?” And he’d say, “It depends on the cry.” So, yes, in the book, there’s an explanation of the subtlety and nuance to this process. You learn so much by diving in and doing it because your child is constantly changing. You learn a lot about the cry itself. The cry is a form of communication. As children grow older, we want to listen to their cries with curiosity and openness, with the intention of saying, I want to know you. I want to understand your communication. There’s often a lot of projection onto little ones, especially toddlers—things like, “Oh, they’re manipulating us,” or “They’re working us.” But that’s not true. They’re not manipulating; they’re simply trying to understand us. They’re curious. They want to see what makes us tick, what gets a reaction, how we respond, and why. So, we need to tune in and get to know them. Start with five minutes and really listen. If you pay attention, you’ll notice that a cry often has a musical quality to it. It’s the worst music to our ears, to be honest, but you can start to discern patterns. By as early as 8 months, infants might cry and then repeat the cry, almost like a call-and-response pattern. The cry has a cycle. It crescendos, decrescendos, crescendos again, and so on. If it follows this pattern, it will usually peak and then start to fade. At that point, give it another minute and see if the decrescendo continues. Often, within seven minutes, you can hear this natural cycle of crescendo and decrescendo. However, if the cry keeps escalating—going up and up and up—then you go in. For younger babies, like a 5-month-old, you’ll go in more often. That’s why I say you may just sit in a chair in the room, staying present, and say, “I’m here. I’m listening.”

[Tammy] Yeah, and honestly, that worked for me. I think this is why I love that you’re not quite married to “it has to be this way” because, like any moms listening, I co-slept for the first four months. I did the feedings because he needed to be fed so much, and it was exhausting. I thought, “To heck with this, I’m just going to co-sleep.” We did all the things: we made sure the child wasn’t covered by a blanket, and I had a net so he could breathe in case he fell off. There were all these safety precautions in place.

[Eileen] You can make it safe—that’s the easiest thing.

[Tammy] I did all the research, and this is how we were going to do it. He slept, and it wasn’t until we moved him out of the bed that we encountered a problem. We then used a method where my husband and I would take turns staying in the room. We’d sneak out, and then there would be a little bit of fuss. We’d listen to him cry, sometimes going back in, sometimes just sitting there until he fell asleep, which could take up to an hour. But we had the time; we weren’t rushing to activities. That worked for about six months, but then things changed because he became a toddler, and then we wanted to leave the room.

[Eileen] Right, and then you move on to the next stage. You can do it in stages. It’s not a make-or-break thing. Now, I’ll ask you this: With most of my couples—especially heterosexual couples—it’s easier for the father than for the mother. Was that the case in your house?

[Tammy] Honestly, he’s pretty highly sensitive. So, I think we were about the same. Yeah, I think I taught him a lot about attachment and the science behind it. We came into it pretty informed, and we had a game plan from the time he was born on how we were going to handle sleep. So, I did my research before we started. We didn’t get sidetracked, and it didn’t mean he didn’t have developmental leaps where it seemed like we had a regression. Like whatever. There were nights we slept on the floor. We literally hauled a mattress in.

[Eileen] Oh yeah, we did that too. We had an inflatable mattress.

[Tammy] We’d switched homes, and he was highly anxious because we were in a new house.

[Eileen] That’s exactly when we moved. We moved a lot when we relocated to Colorado, and when the kids were ill, we all got ill. So, everyone went to bed. It was just the easiest thing to do.

Balancing Parental Instincts with Modern Life

[Tammy] So, I just want to tell parents that you can be flexible with this. There are ways to make it work. But I think what I really like about Eileen’s work, and I really encourage you to check it out, is that it prioritizes reading your child’s emotional cues and decoding them. It makes sure you, as a parent, are healthy. She talks a lot about co-regulation, and in order to co-regulate, you need to be self-regulated. She also discusses the importance of your relationship with your spouse, the routines throughout the day, and the importance of play. These are things that we don’t always realize—family life is a living, breathing organism, and everything plays into each other. I found her book to be a game plan for family life, especially in modern times because, honestly, child sleep is often incompatible with modern-day life. 

[Eileen] We have to structure it in a way that works. I always get pictures from people showing how animals all sleep together and saying, “Look, animals do it, so we should too.” But I always point out that the mother elephant doesn’t have to run an ER, and the mother lion doesn’t have to show up in court at 8 a.m. There’s a lot that those animals don’t have to do during the day that we do.

[Tammy] We do. And I think that it’s twofold, which I really want to highlight. Their genetics would say—and I always tell parents this—they are programmed to want to sleep with us because most mammals sleep with their infants. There’s that instinct. But we, as parents, expect our kids to sleep in their own beds for our own sanity because we have to run an ER room or be in court, or whatever we’re doing. For me, my son was kicking me so much that I couldn’t sleep at all, and I thought, “This is not working for me.” We are fighting against a very strong instinct, and that’s going to take time and patience to work through. It’s hard for both parents and kids because we do have that natural draw to stay with our young. But we also live in a modern world where that’s not always possible, and parents need to keep their mental well-being in check.

[Eileen] Yes, you do. So, you’re modeling health and well-being. You’re showing what it takes to be resourced. Now, when they become toddlers, when you go on vacation, celebrate it. We’re not going to expect toddlers to have their own hotel room or sleep in their own bedroom in an Airbnb or at a relative’s house. Celebrate that we all come together and share the “cave.” All the little birds are going to come back to the nest. I’ve had families make up little chapter books of their child’s own sleep story. These stories include chapters on travel, the arrival of a new baby, and all kinds of scenarios to prepare the child for what’s going to happen, so we can have the flexibility to adjust. It feels so good to have them climb into bed with us and snuggle. I don’t want to miss that.

[Tammy] My younger two still want to do that, but my 16-year-old doesn’t—she prefers watching movies on the couch. That’s okay. I just want to take a moment to thank you for this. I’ll include a link to your book below, everyone. I’ve talked to a lot of people about sleep, but Eileen is now one of my favorite people, and I really appreciate her work. I’ve looked at her book, and it’s flexible and adapted, and it honors brain science. I love the Magda Gerber approach, so I’m really, really encouraging you to take a look at her resources. Do you offer coaching too?

[Eileen] I do. I have a free “get to know you” call, so if you want to call and ask me some questions, or if you’re interested in working with me, I want to make sure we’re a good fit. I offer a free 20-minute call to make sure we’re on the same page. And I wish I were more active on Instagram—I just can’t keep up with it, although every once in a while, I get a good streak in. But yes, please contact me if you’re interested. I offer coaching with packages or one-offs, depending on your needs. I like to assess your values and work together that way.

[Tammy] Yeah, I’ve included links to your book, your email (hopefully you’re okay with that), your blog, and your Facebook page in the description of this podcast. Again, I really appreciate the science behind your work, the flexibility, and your holistic approach. So, I’m really happy to send people your way. I’ve learned a lot from this, and I’m grateful for everything. Thank you so much for your time. I also feel like, “Okay, I didn’t screw up my kids when they were learning how to sleep.”

[Eileen] No, we might screw them up in other ways, but not with this.

[Tammy] That’s beautiful. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.

[Eileen] It was great to meet you. Thank-You.