Child Psych Podcast Episode #137

[Tammy Schamuhn] Hello everyone, and welcome to the Child Psych podcast. My name is Tammy.

[Tania Johnson] And I’m Tania.

[Tammy] We are here today to talk to you about kids who are a little shy. Tania is going to take the lead on this podcast. I’m going to chime in because I’ve got two kiddos who are a little bit shy—not painfully shy, but I had a little brother who was. I just want to remind everyone to rate and review our podcast. If you love what we’re putting out into the world, go to your nearest and dearest podcast provider and just let us know how we’re doing. We would really appreciate that.

[Tania] I have one other plug too. We also have opened up a Patreon account, which we will link in the description, where we have tons of extra bonus content. We would love for you to come and join us on Patreon too. It’s way more personal, and we’d love for you to come and join us there.

[Tammy] Yeah, so you can go to the link in the description of this podcast to get all kinds of bonus content. You can get printables, transcripts—like Tania said—extra bonus content that’s not included anywhere else, and an ad-free experience for our podcast.

[Tania] Okay, so shyness, Tammy. Knowing your personality, I’m going to guess that you have probably never in your entire life been called shy.

[Tammy] No, I have not. Most people who listen to our podcast know that I have a biological son and two stepdaughters. My son is about the furthest thing from shy you will ever encounter. He has a pretty big personality—just very extroverted, very talkative. I was the same when I was little. My mom used to joke that I would go home with a complete stranger if we could carry on a conversation, because I would just go up to people and start talking. So that was definitely not my experience, but from what you’ve shared as friends, that was something that came up for you when you were younger. That label—I don’t know if we should call it a label, but it came up.

[Tania] It’s a label. It’s totally a label. I’ve definitely had that label put onto me: “She’s shy,” and we’ll talk about the impact of that. When I think about my own girls too, I think that we often get mixed up with highly sensitive kids, introversion, social anxiety, and shyness. I think we often just throw all of those things together when they’re actually very, very different things. Out of both of my kids, Una’s definitely highly sensitive, and Maya’s slower to warm. I think that’s one of the big issues that happens with shyness—we go, “This child is shy,” without actually looking at who they are. What are they like in terms of temperament? It just becomes this umbrella term that a child then weaves into their entire narrative of “I am shy, so I need extra support” or “I don’t talk to people.” It’s incredibly limiting as a label.

[Tania] Yeah, it’s disempowering for kids, I think.

[Tammy] Absolutely. Maybe that’s where we should start—with what shyness actually is. In my own vocabulary, I would really almost encourage parents to just get rid of that label altogether. Get rid of all labels. Instead, if you have a child who is a little bit slower to warm up, we start to look more at their entire self. So we go, “This child is more observant. They are slower to warm up. They take their time.” When we shift how we see our child, it also shifts how we talk to our child. So we start to say things like, “You’re very good at understanding when you feel comfortable and when you’re not,” or “Sometimes you need a little bit of extra time, and then you’re ready to step in.” Those are two very different stories: “You’re shy” versus “You understand when you’re comfortable and when you’re not comfortable.”

The Three Core Temperaments

[Tania] That’s a beautiful way to frame it. I think we could explain to people that there are three overarching temperaments: easy, slow to warm, and difficult temperaments. Those are the classic ones, I think.

Easy being like my son—just jumps in, really talkative, you know, a sensory-seeking kind of kid who’s just really comfortable with people right away, or he’ll make himself comfortable pretty fast.

Then you have slow to warm, which you were mentioning—they’re social, but it just takes them a little bit to dip their toe in the water, to observe, and just to get their feet wet and get a feel for everybody. Once they’re familiar, they’re fine.

And then your difficult temperaments—they’re a little more prickly, a little more distrustful, probably a little more introverted versus extroverted. I don’t know a ton of difficult kids. I know more of—unless it’s trauma—I know more of the slow to warm and the easy temperaments. But I know the difficult ones definitely do exist. They come into the world, I would say, kicking and screaming. Fiery.

[Tammy] Yeah, sometimes they can be a little bit harder, a little bit more fiery. So those are the three temperaments there. I think when we switch to understanding temperaments and say that, it just opens up this entire world where we go, “Okay.”

I think for children—I know for myself—one of the things that I know I shine at is my ability to really read other people and understand how they’re feeling, how I’m feeling right now. When we can start to empower kids by going, “Hey, who are you? How do you shine in this particular situation?” it opens up this perspective of “What am I here to offer the world?” Very different.

Understanding Highly Sensitive Children (HSC)

[Tania] Well, that’s your ability. We’ve talked about this in other episodes—which is highly sensitive. We’ve had probably three or four episodes on highly sensitive children, so please check our archives for many of those episodes.

Your HSC—your highly sensitive child—you definitely have one kiddo that is, and I think I have one that is and one that is on the cusp. It’s like, you know, just parts of it. You know what I mean? They’re on a spectrum a little bit, and she’s pretty close to being highly sensitive. Both of the girls are so attuned to what happens with other people and have a lot of sensory sensitivities. Really empathic that way—all three of my kids are.

But I think that’s—I love that word “empathy” because kids who are often, quote-unquote, “shy” can be highly sensitive. For anyone who’s never heard us talk about this, it’s a temperament, not a disorder. They feel everything deeply, including sensory experiences. They take in a lot more information than the average child. So it makes sense that they’re taking in so much, right? It takes a minute to adjust to a new situation and new people, and they’re reading everything. Versus myself and my son—we just kind of jump in, and half the time we’re oblivious to what’s going on because we just have a goal in mind. We’ll miss things because we’re just jumping in.

Introversion vs. Shyness: Understanding the Difference

[Tammy] That’s just beautiful. I love that insight. I think often our highly sensitive kiddos and adults are slower to warm and have that slower temperament. So often, I think that label of shyness does go in there as well. Not all highly sensitive people are necessarily “shy” in quotation marks, but I think that temperament and those traits go hand in hand quite often.

The other two that we often get confused about are introversion and social anxiety. I think with introversion, we need to remember that introversion is basically when we are tired or when we need to recharge ourselves. Often, introverts need quite a bit of space and time—time alone—whereas our extroverts often recharge through being with other people. So again, that “shyness” that we often speak about is slower to warm, whereas introversion is more about energy management.

Energy Management vs. Social Comfort

[Tammy] You can have a really extroverted introvert, I say—people who are very introverted but they’re really social. But then they’re exhausted when they’re done, if that makes sense. Like that’s the thing. So I think people assume that if you’re introverted, you’re shy, and if you’re extroverted, you’re outgoing. But actually, no—it’s a battery. I think of it as a battery pack. How do you recharge? That would define the management of energy, like you mentioned.

[Tania] Beautiful. Yeah. And then social anxiety and shyness also often get mixed up. So social anxiety is often just a fearfulness of new situations and new people, whereas again, that shyness—that temperament—is actually slower to warm. So there’s a difference there too.

The Importance of Controlling the Pace

[Tammy] Yeah, they know they can handle it. They just don’t like being shoved into it too fast. To me, it’s like—as long as they can control the tempo of the meeting. That’s my oldest, my 17-year-old. As long as she knows she has that peace, like “I can slowly enter the situation and decide when I want to talk to people and how I want to talk to people,” and we’re not saying “You have to do this,” then she’ll start to shut down. She needs to take the lead that way. I don’t know if that was you, Tania, when you were younger—if you could just decide on the pace in which you entered something new?

[Tania] Yeah, absolutely. You know, it’s interesting—I actually went to a school which specialized in the arts, and the art that I chose was drama, which is pretty extroverted. It’s louder. It’s big. You’re in front of people. And now we do so much public speaking, right? But it was up to me because I was able to enter when I was ready. I was in control instead of being pushed into situations.

I think that’s what happens with our kiddos who are slower to warm up—parents want them to be brave, to be more confident, and so we often push them into things that they are not ready for. This is what I say to parents: the environment is more important than the activity. So find something that your child absolutely loves. It doesn’t matter what it is—scrapbooking, chess club, the bay club, it doesn’t matter what it is. Find something that they’re comfortable with, with adults that they are comfortable with. Then we can slowly scaffold them to start to take on more and more brave moments so that they can hear their voice more, so that they can become more comfortable. What they’re involved in—the people around them are more important than the actual activity itself.

[Tammy] Yeah, you’re right. I think sometimes parents, whether you have a slow-to-warm child, an introverted child, extroverted child, whatever kind of child you have—I think we have these hopes and dreams for our kids that they’re going to like what we like and they’re going to be like us. Sometimes we get a kiddo that does not match us.

One thing I’ve noticed about having two stepdaughters who are much more shy than me—they’re much more slow to warm, not super outgoing, so it takes a while, but they do get there—it was hard for me at the beginning because I’m just like, “Jump right in, let’s just go talk to people.” That was hard for them to be around adults. I had to accept that these are girls, these are unique kiddos that are not going to be interested in a ton of organized activities or sports. They’re not going to do public speaking. This is not going to be their thing. My son’s very much like that, but I had to let go of that. There’s a little bit of grief there.

I think what’s important is just awareness that sometimes kids just are radically different from us. Our job as adults is we have to adjust to them, not vice versa. I think we sometimes get in the trap of pushing kids to be more like us because it makes us more comfortable.

[Tania] Absolutely, 100%. You know, we hear this from parents too—it’s like, “But when I was growing up, I had this big group of friends and all the rest, and I’m so worried about my kid.” But I think we often need to slow down and go, “Hold on, is my child happy right now? Are they content?” That’s what matters. If it’s one little friend, or they take their time—what brings them that sense of wellbeing? Often it’s very different from what we had when we were growing up.

[Tammy] Yeah, and it’s okay that it’s different and just letting that go.

[Tania] Yeah. I think the other big thing, Tammy—you mentioned earlier about tempo—I know with my girls, sometimes when we go into situations where they’re unsure, it really is about co-regulating with them. So it’s about slowing down, matching where they’re at. So often I’ll be—same as what you’re saying there—it’s like, “Oh, come on, you know, we’ve met these people before, let’s go.” And then when I can see that hesitation, it’s often a cue to go, “Hold on, let me just sit with them for a little bit. Let me calm my body, make sure that I am calm. Wait until they’re ready and then follow their lead on that.”

There are times where we do need to push a little bit—that’s the bravery muscle. But I think a big part of it has to do with an adult’s co-regulation. When a child feels safe and connected, they’re more likely to take those steps towards what’s scaring them at that moment.

[Tammy] Yeah, so use yourself as a safe space to say, “I’ve got this.” It’s like—I imagine a bungee cord when I think of attachment, where kiddos go out a little bit and then they come back, and they go a little further and they come back. You notice this from toddlerhood all the way to adolescence—that bungee cord gets longer and longer, but they still come in.

The more cues they get for safety from us—that we’re not frustrated with them, that we can handle what’s coming up for them—they go out a little bit further and then they come in. I think what you’re touching on there is that sometimes we can get really frustrated because we just want them to “get over it already.” Then it probably feels to the child a little bit more like coercion. We’re coercing them to go out, and they feel that and actually can leave them more stuck versus allowing them to go out. Because now our frustration is bubbling up, they feel like something’s wrong with them. They might get stuck in a feeling of shame: “I can’t do this, and here my adult’s disappointed in me.” Then the meltdown would ensue, is my guess, or they just shut down entirely. They’re not talking, they’re not moving, because no one wants to feel that the answer is coercion—”I have to do this, I’m being forced to do this.” I think most humans don’t prefer that. It’s not their ideal. So then you get resistance.

[Tania] 100%. Beautiful. I think the other thing is with our slow-to-warm kids—as we talk about being careful that there’s no coercion there—we also don’t want to let them off the hook too much. So often we’ve labeled this child as shy, and then we go to a restaurant and they take a long time to put their order in with the server. Maybe we just jump in and go, “Mom will order for you,” or “Dad will order for you.” Instead, slow down. Let them take the time and then help them to realize, “I can have that voice,” but be careful we don’t jump in too quickly and rescue them because then we just perpetuate this: “I can’t do it, and I’m a shy person, and mom and dad need to always help me.”

[Tammy] Actually, that was a big one for both of my girls—ordering food. It’s still a little hard for them. You can see they get a little bit—I imagine public speaking is very similar for them, actually, if they have to talk in class. But if I just stop and back off, they do get there, but I won’t actually let them off the hook. They have to—if they want food, they have to order—but they can take as much time as they need. To the point where I’ve actually let people go ahead of us if they needed a couple of minutes. We usually discuss the menu first, so they already kind of know. I can whisper in their ear if I need to, but the idea is that they have to say the words.

We had this beautiful experience actually at a restaurant where my middle child was really struggling with ordering, but she did get it out. It was really hard, but she did get it out, because I said, “You have to order if you want the food.” Then the beautiful server at the Tim Hortons said, “I have autism, and I know how hard that is. So great job.” It was the most beautiful thing. I told her, “Sweetie, you’re not autistic, but what she’s saying is she understands what that’s like to have anxiety about speaking in public to strangers—that’s hard.” It was really quite lovely. That was about a month ago.

[Tania] Yeah, it’s beautiful. I think, Tammy, that’s such a beautiful reminder—even with our kids—to talk to them about the fact that there are all different types of people in the world. We have people who talk quickly, people who talk slowly, and we can build that awareness around giving other people space, reading other people’s cues. Because within that lies emotional intelligence.

[Tammy] Yeah, I like the part we were talking about earlier when it can be their superpower. I don’t know the exact words you used, but it can be their strength. I think that’s true even with our highly sensitive kids. I know I’ve talked to my children and framed it that way. Like, shyness kind of comes in—and we have used that word “feeling a little shy”—feeling a little nervous in certain situations can feel overwhelming. But the fact that you notice how other people feel and you’re considering what they’re thinking is your superpower too. Because you’re very kind to other people, you consider what they’re thinking and what they’re feeling, and that’s a really, really good thing because it makes you an excellent friend. It makes you a really good worker and a really good student.

I’ve got one kiddo who’s working part-time now, and she can read what’s going on. But that’s because she can step back and really take in that information. If she’s given the time, she can do that. So it becomes this amazing gift. Both the girls have said that they are the friends that people come to now, because they spend more time listening than talking over people. They slow down. I said, “See, this is a really good one-on-one thing for you.”

It feels, when they’re younger, like this really hard thing, because you get into restaurants and you get into a play date or a new activity and they sometimes can freeze a little bit. One thing you mentioned is making sure it’s a good match for them, which I have learned—some things just aren’t for my more quiet girls versus my son. But the second thing was just keep reframing it, keep reframing it as their superpower. How is that a good thing in certain situations? While it feels hard in this situation, it’s really good in others.

[Tania] I think that’s absolutely beautiful. The only other thing that I would add to that conversation is: “You’re so good at understanding your body when you’re comfortable versus when you’re not,” which is a beautiful gift when it comes to boundaries. Often, there are lots of adults who don’t understand boundaries and how it feels in their body. That’s something that they have already, which is such a beautiful reframe for kids.

I think, just to finish off on this, I want to make note that I’m emphasizing not being labeled as shy because I feel like culturally there’s often this piece of trying to fix a child’s shyness. There’s a cultural perspective on confidence and competency needing to be loud, which isn’t a global phenomenon. In many cultures, competency can be very quiet, but I feel like in North America, there’s often a push not to be shy, not to be quiet, to step outside of yourself.

Cultural Perspectives on Quietness

[Tammy] I know my in-laws were just in Japan, and we were talking to them about their experience of being in social situations in Asia. They said that even the way we were talking at dinnertime would have been—we would have been kicked out of the restaurant the way our family was interacting. I thought, “Oh, that’s so interesting, right?” You would not be that forward, you would not raise your voice like that—it would be rude.

So it is very interesting that if you flip it on its head and you’re in a different part of the world, those kiddos who we would call shy or introverted or slow to warm or highly sensitive would be much more valued. That would be much more socially acceptable in social situations than if you come to North America, where more extroverted, outgoing, loud, outspoken people can sometimes be more valued by teachers and employers because they seem more like a leader, or they appear to be more of a leader, I think, initially. Although quiet people can be excellent leaders because they’re so empathic, right? It just takes time for them to step into that role. So I think that cultural piece is important to remember.

[Tania] It’s interesting. Yeah, beautiful. Well, thank you everybody. I think that’s a great place for us to end. So again, we’re just shifting how we see our slower-to-warm kids altogether. I hope that you have some new ideas and new nuggets to share and to think about. And again, thank you for joining us.