Child Psych Podcast Episode #132

[Tania Johnson] Hello and welcome to the Child Psych Podcast. I’m Tanya Johnson.

[Tammy Schamuhn] and I’m Tammy Schamuhn.

[Tania Johnson] We’re registered psychologists, registered play therapists, co-founders of the Institute of Child Psychology, and probably most importantly, moms to five beautiful kiddos.

[Tammy Schamuhn] Yeah, and today we’re gonna be talking about, with our almost tweens – even younger than that, our eight to nine year olds and up – a little bit about the starts of puberty and what to expect and how to have those really uncomfortable conversations with your sons and daughters about the changes that are happening with their body that frankly are pretty embarrassing for them. I’m in the midst of having these conversations with an eight, almost nine year old and an 11 year old right now. So I think that’s where we’re going to dive in and tan’s are a little younger.

[Tania Johnson] Yeah, it’s interesting where you’re at a different phase now, I find with my girls right now, we actually just went to the library literally on Saturday and came home with six books talking about bodies and changes in bodies and sex and all of those things. At first, oldest daughter was pretty excited. But as we got more and more into the book now, she’s like, “do we have to read this?” And I’m like, I’m trying to make it as relaxed and positive. And she was the one who asked for the book. We’ve done it before, but it changes as I hit different developmental stages. But I’m definitely way more enthusiastic than she is at this point about reading the books.

[Tammy Schamuhn] That is fair. It’s the same with the sex conversations I’ve had with my 17 year old. You just see the look on her face and I’m like, “sit down, we gotta have it, we gotta talk about it. I know it’s uncomfortable for me too. This is awkward, but it has to be had.” She’s like, “I don’t want you to talk about this.” I’m like, “yeah, well, I don’t wanna be a grandma. So we’re gonna talk about this.”

[Tania Johnson] And I think it’s changed so much, Tammy, because I’m not sure for you when you were growing up, but for me, kind of changes in the body and all of those sort of bigger discussions, they happened, but it wasn’t an ongoing conversation. And now we know with the research that these conversations have to be ongoing because obviously kids understand things differently at different times in their life.

[Tammy Schamuhn] That, and they also are subjected to a lot of stuff online now and you don’t really want to rely on something they saw on YouTube or TikTok. So for me, I want that information to come from my mouth, from my husband’s mouth, not from something they heard from a friend or they saw on YouTube. Like it’s not how I want to parent. So I just want any discussions about drugs, alcohol, sex, anything like that to come from our home where it’s open and then they feel like they can talk to us about it. And I know many parents are like, well, the schools do this. like, some schools do it and some don’t. That’s the problem. It depends where you live in the world, what state, what province, what country you’re in. And still, we’re not in there to listen to conversations happening. We don’t know what exactly is being said.

[Tania Johnson] Absolutely. And I also think I just I think about my girls, particularly the one who’s highly sensitive. I know that in an environment where there’s lots of other kids and they’re talking about more vulnerable topics, she’s going to be so aware of her feelings inside her body as she’s listening to this, everybody else’s feelings that I actually question how much she would actually take in. So even though they might have those, I actually don’t trust that she’s taking in much. It has to come from me. It has to be in a safe environment or dad, but it has to be in a safe environment where she’s settled enough to actually be learning.

[Tammy Schamuhn] Yeah, absolutely. I’ve got one of those too, where I think she would just be mortified talking about this at school. if she learned, I don’t know if she learned anything when she was younger in the classroom. My son on the other hand is very enthusiastic to talk about anything like this. He finds it fascinating. I don’t know if you’re okay, we’ll start with him because he’s the youngest and we’ll work our way up. So if you have a son, this is something that you’re gonna start talking to them about as young as seven or eight.

I think on our social media we said eight to nine, but I was really thinking about it and I wish I would have done it at seven. Because with our boys, what’s gonna start happening is they’re gonna get spontaneous erections and to be fair, the little, little boys have this, but at seven they’re aware of it. And the siblings are aware of it and that was the thing that was harder for my girls. They’re like, “what the heck is he doing?” And he’s trying to cover something up and he’s running around with a blanket on his lap.

And so there’s all a sudden there’s just kind of awareness around this is happening and he doesn’t understand it. And so when he is, you know, he’s three or four and it happens, like he’s not aware of that. They don’t have that level of self-awareness, self-consciousness of what’s happening. And I think the first place it was, it was easy to talk to him about it because we had already used a lot of the correct terms, like penis, testicles, you know, with our girls, it would be vagina. We use those words. I mean, that’s the first step is when your kids are little, we start introducing the word breasts and penis and we don’t use slang for that. We just make it that this normal thing when we’re addressing body parts, very conversational. So to have a conversation about my son’s penis was no big deal because he’s like, we use that word all the time. Yeah, we’re relaxed about it. So I think we normalize that anatomy first and foremost.

And then with my son, the conversation kind of went like this. You know, as you grow, your body’s going to start changing. And one of the changes that happens is your penis will stand up and it gets hard. And that’s really, really normal because there’s tissue in there and blood flows to it. And we say that’s called an erection. By the way, then you have this conversation with, I’ve had to have this conversation with his sisters. So this isn’t a conversation we just have with sons. If there are other kids, especially females in the home, we also want them to be aware of this. Because they’re gonna see little boys in classroom who are gonna have this. Their brother walks around, especially in the morning like this, and he’s covering it up, and they’re like, what is he doing? And so we wanna normalize that this is just what happens when boys hit a certain age. And it’s hard, it’s embarrassing for him. So we talk about the body changing, and then it stands up, it gets hard because there’s tissue, blood, and he might ask, well, why does it? And I’m trying to think, I think he said, why? And we’re gonna say, like, well, it’s, you know, as you’re growing up, eventually you’re going to help a girl make a baby. And that’s what it’s for, is so you can do that, not yet, but it’s just getting ready for that for when you’re an adult. It’s just practicing, just like other changes are gonna happen, which we’ll talk about, like voice changing, but this comes later with our boys, right, quite a bit later. But for now, it’s just saying like it’s practicing for when you’re an adult.

And if you want the cliche of like when you get married, whatever kind of values you have in your family is fine, or maybe you don’t. But that’s really what it is. So let’s just call it as it is. Call a spade a spade. It’s practicing for your son to reproduce. But we’re going to say practice for when you’re an adult having a baby. That’s what it is.

[Tania Johnson] What was his response to that, Tammy?

[Tammy Schamuhn] Well, then he just said, is that what you mean about sex? Because we’ve already had to talk about that. So then it was like this bridge to a conversation we had had previously about what sex was, which he has asked about several times. So then we had to say yes, and that’s when the penis goes into the vagina and there’s sperm and an egg and like, and we live on a farm too so they see this with our animals. So I guess it was just like, it came full circle for him. He’s like, “oh, that’s what that’s for.” And I was like, “yes, that’s how that works.” But most people don’t have animals, farm animals to compare this to, say, oh, it’s just like when the goats or the sheep or this or this, like, where’s this my kids see that on our farm? But I do want to preface that we let him know, because I’ve seen it, he’s embarrassed. And I would let him know, you don’t have to be embarrassed about this kiddo. Like, it happens to every single man. And that’s where I pull my husband. I’m like, right? It happens to him. He’s like, absolutely. Since I was a little boy, it happens.

So you can tell him, you know, this is something that’s private though, so you can go to the bathroom till it goes away or go in your room or like what you’ve been doing, if you wanna put something over your lap, that’s fine. Thinking boring thoughts sometimes can help. Wearing briefs instead of boxer shorts can kind of help with that. So something a little tighter and sitting, just kind of sitting down till it goes away can be helpful.

And then of course you have that conversation about, you know, private parts are private. We don’t show other kids our erections. Just for good measure, although my kids all know that we don’t do that. But just in case you haven’t had that discussion, is like we don’t show that to anyone, including other boys. Like, we don’t show it. Unless it’s a doctor or your parents. That would be something that, yeah. It’s uncomfortable, but once you get going, it’s really not that bad. And if you’ve been having the discussion about birds and bees anyway, like we had had to explain sex to my kids when they were like six, just because they asked, because they saw something somewhere, you know, how our babies made.

If you’ve already done this, it’s really not that far of a stretch to talk about this. I think it’s just the initial first couple sentences that are like, I don’t want to even say the word erection. It just feels weird talking to a child about this, but it’s happening and they feel like something’s wrong with them. So we really want to have that discussion. And then of course, also creating empathy when we talk to our girls about this, it’s the same idea. We have the same conversation that other boys, this is gonna happen to boys in your class. Even if you don’t have a son, it’s being able to tell your daughters, this happens to boys. And sometimes you might see that in the class where he’s covering up his lap or you see something and that’s what it is. So the girls have compassion, but they’re also not confused about what’s happening.

[Tania Johnson] Yeah, and I love it to me. think the main message that I’m hearing is particularly in the world that we live in right, our kids are going to be exposed. So choose who gives them the message and what message you’re going to give them. So if it comes from the parent first, even if you’re embarrassed and you’re like, have no idea how to do this. When I think about my own girls, I want those messages and I want the education to come from me and not from peers or not from online. And the only way to do that is to really start speaking to them and putting those puzzle pieces together for them.

[Tammy Schamuhn] Absolutely. And of course, then I would tack on to, and you’re going to have to revisit this again. So it’s not like you’re going to start at eight or nine. You’re going to then, as they get closer to actually hitting puberty, and my son’s not hitting puberty at nine, right? He’s almost nine. It’s going to happen quite a bit later. But still, I did mention to him, like, your voice is going to change. And I even did a demonstration of how it’s going to crack, and it’s going to go up and down, and it’s going to sound really funny, and then it’s going to go really deep. So you’re going to sound like a man. You’re going to sound just like your dad.

You’re going to kind of get stinky, just like your feet get stinky. And we talk about that, except it’s gonna come from under your arms, and you’re gonna have to wear deodorant, just like your older sisters wear deodorant, and I wear deodorant, and Alan wears deodorant. Sometimes you’re gonna get little pimples, which my oldest, my 17-year-old, already does stuff for her face, so I was like, that’s when Dixie puts those masks on and she uses that lotion. I was like, yes, exactly like that. Just some of those things, and I think eventually we’re gonna have to talk about wet dreams and like the ejaculation that can happen at night. We haven’t had that one yet, but that’s on the menu in the next couple, probably the next year.

But then at the same token, we’re having now a discussion with my 11 year old, which we had a year ago, because we heard some of her friends, know, kids are developing younger. So we’re talking about then periods. So then it’s shifting to that girls’ bodies are designed to grow babies one day, and they have something called a period where blood comes out of their vagina once a month. You can use words like menstruation, it’s called menstruation. We’re gonna use the word uterus, because the blood is being shedded from the uterus. That’s where the baby is. It’s like a soft sack that the baby lives in when after sex, and a baby is made. So we’re having that discussion about the uterus and menstruation and blood and we talked that you sometimes what happens when right before the blood happens sometimes we our emotions get really really big when it happens we can get cramps. So it’s kind of like a headache, but it’s like just below your stomach So we kind of show them where that is and we can take some Advil or Tylenol for that to help with that, you just have to let us know

Yeah, I mean the girls one they really kind of hit that home at school too though, but I found the erections one they don’t. So the girls have heard that at school. So you’re kind of reinforcing it. They’d already heard it before we had the conversation. It wasn’t new for them. But the erections one was, I wasn’t even on my radar as a parent actually to talk about that until I was following a social media account called Nurtured First. And I was like, my gosh, you’re right. Like I’m noticing this. I need to talk to them about it. So it was, yeah, it was actually someone else at another account that really sparred that and I realized how valuable it was.

[Tania Johnson] Yeah, it’s a big one. And you know, I found too, in talking to my girls about periods, that even though said that the books were a little bit mortifying, having pictures to show them, because this whole concept actually seems really, really, really abstract to them to try and understand how all of this works. So while the words in the book are great, it was actually the pictures that I could show them. This is what happens and each month this is what happens with the blood. This is what it looks like.I found that the pictures were probably the best where they went, “Oh, I get it.” So finding a really, really great book where they can actually see it is really helpful, particularly when they’re younger and they just don’t have that ability yet to understand what actually is happening inside my body if I cannot see it.

[Tammy Schamuhn] Absolutely. Yeah, and that’s a good point too. I didn’t show them a book. We just we talked about it, but Maybe I should because that would probably make things a little bit easier I mean an erection you can see so that’s pretty obvious versus a females anatomy is inside, right? So that’s a little bit a little bit different and may feel a lot more abstract them. The other thing so I think we almost need another episode to talk of how to talk to kids about sex So I think maybe we can save that for the next episode we do together. But one of the things it’s worth mentioning, because I have an 11 year old, so she’s a tween and she’ll get her period and one day she’ll be mortified that I talked about this on a podcast. But she doesn’t listen to the podcast. So I know it’s coming like any time now, just there’s been changes going on with her. And I’m noticing some changes with her brain. And I can see she’s sleeping later now. Mood changes are starting to happen. Being more sensitive to rewards.

This is the time where we start talking to teens when they hit that tween and we think they’re at the cusp of puberty, is that their brain is undergoing a lot of shifts. And that means there are shifts in feelings, shifts in peer kind of orientation and like peer approval. It means they’re more tired. It means a lot of things. So it’s a discussion I want to tag on to this because I think it’s important to have before you’re even going on to other topics, and it just normalizes these shifts in their mood and almost personality, which I know a lot of parents struggle with in the tween years, is the shifts that seem to happen. And so we can talk to our kiddos about the brain is undergoing construction. And it’s kind of like upgrading a phone, if that makes sense. So your brain is clearing out unused apps and speeding up the important ones.

[Tania Johnson] I love that.

[Tammy Schamuhn] Yeah, so during the teen years, your brain is like trimming these connections that they don’t need as much and strengthening the ones that they do. I told my, I told my, she was 14 at the time we were having this conversation. said, this is why it’s really important to prioritize what’s important to you. Like really prioritize because whatever you’re doing in your teen years, that’s what your brain is specializing for. So where, you know, where are we spending our time? You know, where are we putting our energy?

So this like synaptic pruning is just like trimming the hedges so to speak and it allows your teens brain to like run a lot faster. But as a result, it takes a lot of glucose metabolism. So they of course have to sleep more than they normally did. And they sleep more because, and they sleep in later and stay up later because there is a delay in melatonin release in teenagers.

So that’s where they wanna stay up so late and they’re not tired. It’s 10 o’clock and you’re like telling them to go to bed and they’re just like wired. And so early morning classes are really tricky for teenagers and tweens depending where they’re at in terms of puberty and all those hormones being released. So I just let them know, yeah, you need a lot more sleep. You might feel that and you’re gonna wanna stay up later but getting the amount of sleep is still important. It’s really hard to go to sleep, I get that. But you still need eight to 10 hours of sleep every night. Even though you don’t feel tired, you need to go to bed, which means we have to find ways to help the melatonin being released. That helps you go into sleep a lot earlier. So we have to turn off TV, we have to turn off screens, we need that dim light on set for that melatonin to be released. So teaching our teens that they need to get to bed and we need to find a way to hurry up the melatonin so they can get to sleep and get… On the weekends it’s fine, but during the week we have to be pretty regimented about that.

And the amygdala is kind of working overtime because the lower parts of the brain, that’s your amygdala is in charge of your emotions. And with all the hormones going on, that amygdala is a little bit more sensitive. So kids are more sensitive to rejection. They’re more sensitive to peer approval because they’re also doing something called individuating where they’re going, leaving the home eventually. So their brain is very attuned to what is going on socially with other kiddos.

And that amygdala is firing and it hasn’t caught up to their thinking brain, which is under construction, that prefrontal cortex yet. And there’s heightened activity in something called the nucleus accumbens, that’s the brain’s reward center. So they’re really, really sensitive and driven by pleasure, novelty, pure approval, devices, anything that, sugar, fats, like anything like that, it’s in hyperdrive. So just being aware of that, like they’re gonna be more interested in it than your younger kids are actually.

[Tania Johnson] It’s so interesting, so interesting.

[Tammy Schamuhn] Yeah, and they’re not crazy, you know, they’re emotional, their hormones are going up, letting them know that it’s just gonna happen and at certain times of the month those hormones are gonna, even with boys, the testosterone’s higher at certain times of the month than others. So they’re gonna be more combative, they’re gonna be more irritable. They have a cycle similar to women actually, in terms of testosterone. So I think just talking about the brain, talking about what’s changing in their body, just normalize that. And maybe parents didn’t realize that that happens with the teen brain. But it does account for these big emotions that they’re having and the irritability and this all of a sudden, this obsession with what we call the invisible audience, which is like, “everybody’s watching me and everyone’s judging me.” And even though like probably no one is, right? Everyone’s so into themselves as teenagers, right? They’re so egocentric.

But I talked to my teen about that the invisible audience letting her know that it feels that way But every teen is just so worried about themselves. They don’t really notice other kids as much

[Tania Johnson] And I think Tam, this is that whole thing of when you can name it, tames it, right? So it’s like, if you’re feeling this, this is a normal thing. This is not just you. And then it takes away any kind of shame around it or like what’s going on here. It’s like, no, this is actually talk about all of these things so that they don’t feel shameful. So that doesn’t feel like we’re holding something. We’re not quite sure what to do with it because mom and dad have never brought it up. But if we open up these conversations, it takes away any of that shame, any of that secrecy, and it just allows more openness around these topics that are so so important to be having with our kids.

[Tammy Schamuhn] Yeah, things are changing and it’s a new season for parents to go through just when we thought we had one season under wraps and another one comes and full of surprises and things we didn’t think of. But again, it’s a really tumultuous time for our kids when they go through this, just like when they go through the toddler years. It’s almost like, I would say the teen years are just like the toddlers with bigger words.

[Tania Johnson] Hahaha

[Tammy Schamuhn] So it’s very similar, big feelings, they want to pull away from you, do their own thing, hide in their room. It’s just like, I do it, but that’s what your two-year-old says. But your teen’s like, no, I’m my own person, I’m unique. I’m not like you, I want to do things my way. Very similar to the toddler years, just bigger words to tell you off with.

[Tania Johnson] It doesn’t get easier, it just changes, it just changes.

[Tammy Schamuhn] It just changes. It’s just a season that’s, they’re fun, but yeah, that part’s a little bit challenging. I think we all just have to remember what that was like, if we can. The best we can is what was that like to be a teen.

[Tania Johnson] Yeah, and I think kind of to wrap up there, we know that the way to keep our child safest is to have a close, connected relationship with them, to keep having those conversations. All of the research shows that the number one protective factor for kiddos growing up for our teens is a close, connected relationship with an adult.