Child Psych Podcast Episode #125

[Tania Johnson] Hello, my name is Tania and welcome to the Child Psych Podcast.

[Tammy Schamuhn] My name is Tammy, and we’re here today to talk about kids and the state of the world when everything seems up in the air. Tania and I are both child psychologists and moms. Between the two of us, we have five kids, ranging in age from 17 down to our youngest, who is six. We’re recording this podcast at a time when there’s a lot of uncertainty globally, especially in North America. It’s a time when adults are really feeling it, and by extension, the kids are feeling it too, especially if they have access to the news or social media, or if kids are talking about things at school. I know my 17-year-old has a lot of questions right now about the state of things.

[Tania] Yeah, you know, it’s interesting. I think about my two little girls, who are six and nine—well, nearly seven. She won’t let me forget that! But when I think about their lifespan already, we’ve lived through a pandemic, something that happens every hundred years, and now we’ve gone through two and a half years of that. And now, we’re into what feels like a very tumultuous time, especially in North America. I know children all over the world are experiencing similar things. I grew up in South Africa during uncertain times as well, so I know that, globally, the concerns may look different, but I would argue that, for many of our kids, the feelings are the same.

[Tammy] Yeah, and I know in our family, we’ve had to have discussions lately, my husband and I, about what should be said in front of our kids and what shouldn’t be. I’ll give you an example. The other night, we were talking about the cost of food, and my husband, who does most of the grocery shopping, was talking about what it costs to feed our family pre-COVID. I could see my 17-year-old listening to this conversation, and she seemed visibly uncomfortable. We finished the discussion, but then we had to come back and say, “We should never have that conversation in front of the kids again.” You could see almost a look of guilt on her face as she looked at her food, like we had made her feel bad about eating at our table. That wasn’t our intention at all. My husband was simply trying to explain that things are really expensive and to encourage them not to waste food. But the issue was, we didn’t discuss beforehand how we were going to approach it. As a result, I could see the older kids feeling guilty about eating, which was not what we meant. We have good intentions, right? We want to have honest discussions about the challenges we face, and economics is one of them, especially for many families right now. But there are things we need to be intentional about when we introduce these topics to our kids. We had to tell ourselves, “We can never have a discussion about the cost of food at the dinner table like that again,” because it caused so much anxiety for our kids.

Navigating Uncertainty: Helping Kids Cope with Anxiety in an Unpredictable World

[Tania] I think that’s such a beautiful place to start. Knowing our children and understanding what creates angst is so important. Tammy, your specialization is anxiety and trauma specifically. Those are two areas that I know you’re passionate about, and you’ve delved deeply into them. Let’s start there. When our children are living in an uncertain world, what do we want them to remember? What do we want them to know?

[Tammy] I think the first thing we need to focus on is acknowledging that it’s really hard for everyone. We need to normalize that it’s not just hard for them—it’s hard for us, too, when we don’t know what’s about to happen next. That’s what we’re dealing with when we talk about uncertainty. And that’s often the root cause of anxiety—when there’s an uncertain outcome. We don’t know what’s going to happen next. For some families, it might be wondering where the next paycheck is coming from, how to put food on the table, or how their investments will turn out. For adults, it’s a lot of not knowing, like if people are going to have a job or if they can make ends meet. Not knowing is really hard. So for me, validating that it’s scary when we’re not sure what’s going to happen next is key. With my kids, I wouldn’t necessarily talk about what’s happening at that moment, but I’d share a time from my own past when I wasn’t sure about something. For example, I talk about when I moved to the United States for graduate school. It’s a common example I use with my kids—when I wasn’t sure if I’d make friends, if I’d find the right apartment, or if I’d even like the food. The uncertainty of it all. Opening up the conversation by asking them if there’s something they feel unsure about right now. Without necessarily diving into the heavy topics of the world or political matters, I lead by example. I share a time from my life when I felt that way and ask if they’ve ever felt like that too.

[Tania] Yeah. What I find so powerful about that is, like you said, it’s not a direct conversation with the kids—which can often be too much for them because they might pull away. Instead, it’s relating to something that happened when you were younger. The other thing I’m hearing very strongly is that you’re also not jumping in to sugarcoat anything. It’s not like, “There was a time when Mom traveled to a different country, but then everything turned out okay.” That part of the story may come later. But I’m hearing you’re not quickly jumping to sugarcoat.

[Tammy] No, because at the end of the day, I think we all understand that no one truly knows what’s going to happen next. We didn’t know with COVID either, and it’s okay not to know. It’s okay to feel anxious about that. I think it’s a collective sense of unity to say, “Hey, the whole family feels this way,” but I believe it has to be followed by, “We’re going to be okay.” And I know, Tan, you recently wrote a really beautiful blog entry on this, which we should include a link to. I’ve got you, kid; I’m not going anywhere. Our family is always here for you. We love you forever. Your siblings are here, we’re a team, and whatever comes next—this is strongly based in relationship and attachment—none of that is compromised. Even if the world seems really out of control right now, this is your home base. These are your people, and we’ve got your back, even if you feel like the world is against you.

[Tania] That’s beautiful. This is that secure base, isn’t it? It’s like saying, “We’re steady here.” Even if there’s a storm outside, right here where we sit together is a steady, safe place.

[Tammy] Yeah, I think parents feel like they have to have all the answers for their kids, but the truth is, we often don’t. We can follow that up with, “We’re going to figure this out together.” We might not be sure, but we’ll figure it out. And the love isn’t going anywhere. This relationship isn’t going anywhere, even if we’re not sure what’s going to happen next. This is where I love family movie nights with my kids. We’re big fans of Disney and Pixar. Even my 17-year-old son still loves watching Disney movies with us. I was thinking about some of our favorites that really helped us during COVID when things were so uncertain. One is Frozen 2. There’s literally a scene with Olaf where he talks about what we can and can’t control, and he’s chatting with these kids. There’s also a song in there called “The Next Right Thing,” which is all about what a family can do when they’re not sure what’s coming next. Another one my kids and I really leaned on was Moana. You know, her island is running out of food, and she doesn’t know what to do, so she goes on a quest to help her family. The message is that you can still be brave when things are uncertain. But she relies on relationships—she’s not out there completely alone. She’s got her little sidekick (the chicken!), and she meets Maui. She has to rely on those connections to get through. Inside Out is another great one. And Inside Out 2 has this discussion about anxiety and how all the different emotions have to work together to overcome adversity—like not making the star team or facing some other setback. Finding Nemo is also a favorite; Dory’s mantra, “Just keep swimming,” is really about persistence. Even when things feel frantic, just keep moving. It’s about finding purpose: Where do we find purpose as a family? And by cultivating intentional activities—rather than just sitting there thinking, “What’s going to happen next?”—we can keep things moving forward. I don’t know about you, but I like finding things for my kids that spark conversation yet are still fun and lighthearted.

Encouraging Emotional Exploration Through Movies and Metaphors

[Tania] Yeah, Tammy, I think what I love about you mentioning the movies is that our children are younger now, and as they get older—like your 17-year-old—the conversation will look different. We can talk about the movies without directly saying, “This relates to the chaos we’re feeling in our country right now.” We can simply talk about the movies and what’s happening with the characters. In doing so, it allows our kids to start expressing how they feel inside, which is essentially how play therapy works. You can watch a movie with your child and say, “Look at her, she’s feeling uncomfortable—just keep swimming!” I love that, and we don’t even have to make a direct link. That’s where I sometimes see parents falter: we find these golden nuggets in movies and want to jump in for a teaching moment. But when kids feel like we’re teaching, they tend to switch off.

[Tammy] I think it’s important—and I know Tania and I talk a lot about the brain, but I’ll say it again—that kids are governed by their right hemisphere, which is symbolic and somatic. This means they operate from their bodies, imaginations, and symbols. It’s often not helpful to talk about something directly because children process experiences through metaphor; they’re meant to learn through stories. Whether you’re reading a book or watching a movie, it’s all done through a narrative. We call that “externalizing,” where the lesson becomes something outside of them. Kids naturally absorb these lessons without us having to say, “It’s just like when you…” In fact, that’s when they often shut down, because it feels too raw or too close. At first, it’s better if it’s “just a story.” Over time, as they get more familiar with similar stories or play them out, they’ll start to make connections themselves. For example, my son will say, “Hey, that’s just like…” and he arrives there on his own. So I think that’s what you’re getting at keeping it unconscious and in the right hemisphere.

[Tania] Absolutely—yes, don’t be too direct. And just like Tammy said, those little phrases like “Just keep swimming” are so valuable. I find that having a short code phrase for difficult moments really helps. So on a tough day, we can just say, “Just keep swimming, just keep swimming,” and we all understand each other without needing a deep, intense conversation in that moment.

Creating Rituals for Security and Belonging in Uncertain Times

[Tammy] Yeah, you know, right now in our personal lives—I’m sharing these narratives because I come from a blended family. My son just got a new baby sister this morning. He’s very excited, but there’s also a lot of uncertainty about what it means to have another sibling. He already has three sisters, and now there’s a fourth, while he’s the only boy. That naturally causes him a bit of anxiety. When there’s a new sibling, it can be really wonderful yet also very uncertain. One thing I’ve learned from going through this with him a few times now is that the more we create rituals he loves—rituals that ground him—the better he does. For example, this morning we found out about his new baby sister, which is super exciting. He immediately said, “It’s Friday—we have to have a movie night!” And I was like, “Yes, we’re going to have a movie night.” That’s just what we do every Friday in our house. We make big buckets of popcorn, sit on the couch together, and take turns choosing the movie based on age order. We have five people, so we rotate choices. We lean into these rituals that he’s known since he was very young, and they’re really quite simple. You might not think much of a movie night, but that ritual, rhythm, and routine soothes the lower parts of the brain that create physical and psychological safety for kids. It doesn’t require a lot of money; it’s about traditions and routines. This is particularly important for kids who have experienced trauma—the more routines and predictability we give them, the more their nervous systems are soothed in those lower parts of the brain. During COVID, for instance, we asked ourselves, “What rituals do we have in place?” If you don’t have any, start creating them—something you do at the same time every week or every month. I’m not sure if you have any ideas on that, but that’s just one of mine.

[Tania] Yes. One of my favorite definitions of a ritual is that it’s a “safe container of belonging.” It’s one of those things you look back on years later and say, “This is who my family is, this is what we did when I was growing up,” and maybe you’ll do the same with your own kids. When everything feels fragmented in the outside world, we return to this safe container where our hearts can rest—where our nervous systems can rest. As you mentioned, Tammy, that ritual and rhythm is key. Dr. Bruce Perry had a graph that came out during COVID comparing families who really struggled with stress versus those who thrived. If you look at what the thriving families were doing, it was all about predictable routines and rhythms in the household—sitting down for family meals, moving their bodies, staying connected in different ways, and reaching out for help when they needed it. These little moments throughout the day said, “We may not be able to control what’s happening outside, but within our own world at home, we have rhythm and predictability.” It gave them a greater sense of control, even amidst chaos.

Balancing Honesty and Security: Tailoring News and Information for Children

[Tammy] Absolutely. My go-to with kids has always been to create as much stability at home as possible—routines and spaces they can rely on every single day—especially when school, weekends, or conversations with friends feel chaotic. But I want to circle back to something I mentioned earlier: the mistake my husband and I made when talking about rising food costs in front of our kids. Since my children are no longer toddlers or preschoolers, I believe it’s appropriate for them to know food can be expensive, but the way we approached the topic wasn’t handled with much finesse. These are the things you learn as a parent. I don’t think we should just avoid telling them what’s going on in the world. Providing clear, honest information—framed in developmentally appropriate terms—can be really helpful, especially when we use metaphors or comparisons children recognize from their own experiences. We’ve even touched on some political issues with our kids, since they’re already hearing about them anyway. I’d rather the information come from us than from CNN or social media, where misinformation might be an issue. Of course, we have to be careful not to overwhelm them. It’s important to let them know that some of what’s happening isn’t okay, and it can feel unsafe or upsetting. But we shouldn’t dump all the details on them—that’s not helpful either. Instead, we give small, manageable bits of information. Kids know when things aren’t fine. Telling them otherwise just teaches them to mistrust their instincts. They sense that people are more stressed than usual, and it’s okay to acknowledge that. We can say, “You’re not wrong—it is hard right now. Let me try to explain in the best way I know how.”

[Tania] Exactly. In our household, we’ve become very aware of when the TV, news, or radio is on. The other day, I had to stop a political conversation in front of my daughters because I want to be the one to decide the message they receive, as well as the values that message carries. Yes, they’ll hear things at school, but at home, we want to highlight who we are as a family—looking for helpers, kindness, and goodness in the world. It’s important to me that they get that perspective instead of overhearing headlines or debates on the news during breakfast.

[Tammy] After COVID, we made the decision to stop watching the news in our house altogether. My husband and I will go out and find the news we need on our own, but we don’t have it playing around the kids. It’s helped our stress levels too. Whenever I visit my mom, I’m like, “Please turn off the news!” We know things are tough right now, but we don’t need a constant influx of stressful information while we’re trying to eat a meal, right?

Using Stories and Play to Support Children Through Uncertainty

[Tania] We also know that when kids hear or see distressing information on television, their stress levels increase far more than ours do. I might hear something and go, “Oh,” whereas their nervous systems have a very different response.

[Tammy] Exactly. I want to mention a few books I love reading with children in therapy. You don’t have to read books—movies are also great—but stories can be really helpful, too. One is called A Terrible Thing Happened by Margaret Holmes, which I love. Another is The Rabbit Listened by Cori Doerrfeld; it’s great for processing emotions when something goes wrong. And When Things Aren’t Going Right, Go Left by Peter H. Reynolds and Mari Colagavani (we can include the exact spelling in the notes) is another good one. These books reassure kids that while we don’t always know what’s going to happen, and sometimes terrible things occur, there are still safe adults in their lives—people they can talk to and ask questions of. They can draw pictures or find other ways to express themselves. Thinking about A Terrible Thing Happened reminds me of something Tania mentioned earlier about play. When there’s a lot of uncertainty in the world, and you have a child under the age of 10, one of the best ways for them to cope is through child-directed play. This kind of imaginative, child-led play helps them express ambiguity, frustration, and all the confusing emotions they’re experiencing. You can sit there with them, but know that this is how children work through their fears and develop mastery over situations they don’t fully understand—without us lecturing them. It’s how they absorb lessons, using their imagination. It’s nature’s remedy for anxiety. You’ll notice a few things in their play. Children may organize toys, line them up, or create categories. They might play out good-versus-bad scenarios, or you might see death themes. Sometimes their play can look aggressive: they might pretend to “kill” or “decapitate” toys. They may hide things. These are normal expressions of a child trying to process what’s happening around them. We don’t need to tell them it’s inappropriate or lecture them. It’s important to maintain that sacred space, letting them express their fears, impulses, and uncertainties about the world. You’ll know something is on their minds when they repeat certain play themes over and over. They might also engage in nurturing play, like feeding a baby doll or caring for pets, especially if they’re feeling fragile. I’ve noticed my own kids are doing a lot of this kind of play right now, which I find fascinating. There’s a lot of imaginative play happening in my house, and I haven’t seen it to this extent in a while.

[Tania] Yeah, I think parents often wonder, “What am I supposed to do during this kind of play?” The biggest thing is not to direct the play. Kids are simply working through what they’re experiencing. Whether they’re playing alone or with you, you just want to maintain a mutual gaze and let them play it out—let them lead. As adults, we often end up steering the play, but the children are the ones processing their world. It’s a great reminder to let them guide the play; that’s how they work through difficult thoughts and feelings.

[Tammy] Exactly. We’ll leave you with this as we wrap up, try sticking to this formula if you can. First, validate their feelings. Second, talk about times you’ve felt the same way. Third, give them clear, honest information. Then, create rhythm and predictability in your home—and include a space for kids to express themselves in developmentally healthy ways, such as play. You can also turn to books or movies that reinforce these lessons. But at the end of the day, the most important thing is that your child has a secure base at home with you. They need to know that no matter what happens in the world, your relationship—and their relationships with siblings or grandparents—isn’t going anywhere.

[Tania] The only thing I would add is that nature doesn’t change. Getting outside is a wonderful way for kids to work through feelings and calm their nervous systems. As much as possible, get outside with them—encourage them to see nature as one of the world’s most powerful healers. That’s what I do with my kids: “Get outside, get outside, get outside!”

[Tammy] Great. Thanks, everyone. We’ll see you next week.

[Tania] Thank you, Tammy.