Child Psych Podcast Episode #126

[Tania Johnson] Hello and welcome to the Child Psych Podcast. I’m Tania Johnson, registered psychologist, registered play therapist, and co-founder of the Institute of Child Psychology. Today, we are very excited to have Dr. Paul Sunseri with us. Welcome, Paul.

[Dr. Paul Sunseri] Thank you, Tania, and thank you so much for having me on your show. I appreciate the opportunity.

[Tania Johnson] Such a pleasure. A little bit about Paul before we jump in—Paul is a clinical psychologist and father of four who treats children and adolescents with serious mental health conditions. He is the developer of Intensive Family-Focused Therapy, a highly effective form of family-based mental health care. He is the author of Gentle Parenting Reimagined: How to Make it Work with Oppositional and Defiant Kids. Lots of questions! The title of the book, Gentle Parenting Reimagined—tells me a little bit about that title.

[Dr. Paul] Well, I’ll start with gentle parenting, if that’s OK. I’m imagining a lot of your listeners are at least familiar with the idea, but I’ll just quickly summarize it. It’s been around for about 10 years or so, and essentially, this style of parenting prioritizes relationships between kids and their parents. It puts an emphasis on leaning into your kids, understanding them, and empathizing with them. Unlike previous generations, there’s less emphasis on strict discipline and punishment and more on just trying to understand and collaborate, which I think is a great thing. I don’t think any parent I’ve ever met would argue with the idea of being gentle with their kids—I think, universally, we believe that’s a good idea. But the problem with gentle parenting is that sometimes it opens itself up to some degree of reasonable criticism, right? If you go on TikTok and enter #gentleparenting, you’ll come up with all kinds of videos that make fun of it. Saturday Night Live, for example, did a great skit on it that I thought was hilarious. The reason it opens itself up to attack is that some people think it’s just an excuse for parents to let their kids get away with murder. It isn’t really strong on the limit-setting aspect of parenting or on having high behavioral expectations for kids. The kids I work with in my practice are highly oppositional and very defiant towards their parents. They sometimes think nothing of cursing at their parents, and some are even physically aggressive towards family members. They are massively disrespectful, rarely do what they’re told, and almost never help out around the house. Many of the kids I work with don’t do their homework, so they either aren’t passing their classes or are barely passing. I wrote this book because these are the families I want to speak to, and I’m sure some of your listeners have kids who may not do everything I just described but probably struggle with a lot of these behaviors. These families are everywhere. I’m part of a Facebook group for parents of kids diagnosed with oppositional and defiant disorder—which is really just a label we put on kids who are super stubborn and often don’t do what they’re asked. There are 39,000 members in that Facebook group. It’s like, my God, they’re everywhere! I think what happens with these families is that there’s a lot of guilt and shame. Many people don’t talk about it, but they’re everywhere. That’s why I wrote the book. I wanted to give something to people who are struggling with these problems and provide them with strategies and techniques that actually work. As a therapist, I’m very practical—I want to tell parents what will work to solve their problems. I’m not one of those therapists who talks around things. I’m like, OK, let’s get to work—here’s what it is.

[Tania] Which is beautiful. In my own experience, I’m a biological mom to two little girls. It’s a very different experience from what I had about 10 years ago when I was a foster mom to a sibling group of four—wonderful, resilient kiddos who definitely came in with their own stories and challenges. Parenting at that point was very different from what I’m doing now, and I don’t think the gentle parenting approach would have been effective.

[Dr. Paul] Well, if I can respectfully challenge the last thing you said—I see this every day in my practice where parents can be gentle. Now, you may mean gentle parenting in its pure, traditional form, and I completely agree with you on that. I think if you had used that approach with those four kids, they probably would have just thought it was comical, and nothing would have changed, right? They would have continued the same behaviors. But I do think you can find a balance between being loving, kind, and attentive while also setting firm limits. Particularly with more difficult-to-parent kids, you have to be really good at limit-setting. If you want your child or teenager to talk to you respectfully, you need to know what to do and say in response to disrespect—something that has a high probability of reducing that behavior over time. With my own kids—my daughters—I completely lucked out. They were just four easy-to-parent kids from the moment they were born. So I could be a super gentle parent and very light on discipline because all I needed to do was say, Hey, it looks like you have a couple of missing homework assignments. I’d like you to get those done by tomorrow, please. And they would say, Okay, and just do them. To a lot of parents listening, that probably seems like a miracle—almost an impossibility. But even highly oppositional kids aren’t that way every minute of every day. They certainly have their moments, but the rest of the time, they’re just being kids. That leaves plenty of space to be loving, kind, and attentive. So, in that way, you can get the best of both worlds.

[Tania] I love that reframe—I totally agree. Okay, so what do parents get wrong when it comes to gentle parenting? What is it?

[Dr. Paul] Well, they think you can talk your way out of any problem, right? So let’s take an example. I was listening to a podcast recently where the guest was a parenting expert. One of the listeners asked, I can’t get my kid to take out the trash. She refuses to do it, or he says he forgets. What do you recommend? That particular influencer emphasized sitting down and collaborating: Let’s figure out what’s getting in the way of you taking out the trash. Let’s talk about this, because I don’t want to fight about it all the time. Let’s see if we can come up with a solution that works for both of us. Now, that’s not a bad opener—I have no objections to that whatsoever. The kid responded, Well, I don’t want to take it out because it’s dark. The parent, being reasonable, said, That makes sense to me. How about doing it before it gets dark? What if we just try to get it done before five or six? And the kid replied, Okay, I can do that. As you might predict, the next time the trash needed to go out, the kid didn’t do it. So the parents sat down again: Well, what happened? And that’s where gentle parenting goes wrong—when you have a persistent problem, and the cycle repeats itself again and again. At least for the kids I work with, I don’t believe you can talk them into taking out the trash. You cannot persuade them, because, like anybody else, who wants to take out the trash? I don’t. They don’t. They’re simply avoiding the task. That’s where it goes wrong. If you just try to talk a child into taking out the trash, it’s never going to get done, and you’re going to end up super frustrated. Even the best parents I know start off being reasonable, but after 10 conversations about taking out the trash, they eventually lose patience and say, Just get it done! And then the kid reacts: I don’t want to do it! I’m not going to do it! Do it yourself! Now you’re at an impasse. That’s where gentle parenting struggles—especially with a difficult child.

When Gentle Parenting Fails How to Get Kids to Follow Through

[Tania] Beautiful. And now I have to ask the question, because everyone is wondering—what do we do with this kid and the trash?

[Dr. Paul] Easy peasy. I’ll walk you through it. First of all, the way I look at parenting and raising children is that they really do need to do the things they’re asked to do. You have to establish a climate in your home where, when I ask you to do something, the expectation is that you get it done. I’m not going to be harsh. I’m not going to raise my voice. I’m not going to over-punish you. But this is how families work—parents ask their kids to do things, and kids may not always want to, but it’s still the expectation. If you raise kids from an early age with the understanding that it’s not okay to tell me no when I ask you to do something, you set a foundation. I don’t expect them to love doing it, but it really isn’t okay to tell me no. What I see a lot of parents do with kids who constantly refuse—I’m not going to do it, I’m not going to do it—is that they eventually give up or drastically lower their expectations. They start asking for the bare minimum, and many times, kids don’t even meet that. So, my first talking point is: Never give up. If you want your child to do something, you have to stick with it until it’s done. Keep at it until you find a solution, because if you accept their no and let them off the hook, you’re teaching them the very opposite of what you want to instill. You’re telling them that following directions in your family is optional—and it really isn’t. Okay, so let’s say the kid says, I don’t want to take it out because it’s dark. I would do a little bit of collaborating. I might say, Well, can you be that kid for a second, Tania?

[Tania] Absolutely, let’s do it!

[Dr. Paul] Do you feel comfortable doing a quick role-play? Hey, so what happened to the trash? It looks like you didn’t take it out again.

[Tania] It’s dark and it’s creepy out there, I don’t want to do it.

[Dr. Paul] Yeah, dark and creepy. Okay, well, can you think of a solution then that might work?

[Tania] I don’t know, I guess maybe earlier before the sun goes down.

[Dr. Paul] I see, is that something you’re willing to commit to?

[Tania] yeah, I guess.

[Dr. Paul] What time do you think would be reasonable to have it taken out?

[Tania] Maybe five.

[Dr. Paul] Five o’clock in the afternoon—I think that’s reasonable too. I love this conversation, and thank you so much. But I have to ask you a question. What if, despite your good intentions, you miss taking the trash out again? What should we do then? Just humor me—let’s say you don’t do it. What do you think should happen?

[Tania] I don’t know. You do it.

[Dr. Paul] Well, I do a lot around here, and it’s your chore, so what else you got?

[Tania] Comment, sister dudes.

[Dr. Paul] Well, she has her own responsibilities too. I’m thinking more along the lines of how I should respond if you don’t take the trash out, even though you’ve committed to doing it. What should I do in response?

[Tania] I don’t know. I think that you could… not let me use my phone until later? I don’t know—until I’ve done it.

[Dr. Paul] Well, I think you’re on the right track. What if we did this? Let me present you with a couple of options. How about this—on the day the trash is supposed to go out, we start the day with no screens? No phone, no gaming systems—you just wake up with no devices at all. Then, once you take the trash out, I’d be happy to turn it back on for you. What do you think of that?

[Tania] Fine, we’ll try. I don’t know—we can try.

[Dr. Paul] You think that would work okay? Yeah? That’s great. Well, let’s try it out and see what happens. Thank you for being so open in this conversation and so agreeable—I think this is awesome. We can step out of the role play now. So, the kid pretty much just stepped into the agreement, right? That’s exactly what I would do. Alternatively, I could say, I really want the trash out by five o’clock in the afternoon. How about we do this? If it’s five o’clock and the trash isn’t out, I’ll probably give you one reminder because everybody forgets things sometimes. But if it’s still not done, I’ll go ahead and turn off your screens until you take the trash out. Either one of these plans would work. Plan number two is a slightly more gentle approach—turning screens off only after the deadline is missed. The first one is a little tougher—waking up to no screens until the trash is taken out. But I do think there’s a high probability the kid is going to take out the trash. If I had to put a number on it? 95%. What kid would go without their screens for an entire day—or even for hours and hours? They’re going to make the smart decision. They’ll just take the trash out so they can get their stuff back.

[Tania] Absolutely. And Paul, what I’m hearing is that, as a parent, you’ve already decided on the consequences before sitting down with your child. Since this trash issue has likely been ongoing for a while, you’re approaching the conversation already knowing what will happen if the child doesn’t follow through.

[Dr. Paul] Exactly. You go in with a strategy. In my head, I had already scripted out that role play. Now, it might change a little based on the child’s responses—it could take me down one path or another. But I will always arrive at the same final destination: If it doesn’t happen again, here’s what I’m going to do. At that point, you have the child’s attention. You’ve given them fair warning. What I usually say to kids is this: Here’s a secret about consequences—they are entirely avoidable. You can go through life as a kid and never get a consequence. How? Well, just do the things I ask you to do, right? If you don’t like losing your phone, being grounded, or missing out on time with your friends this weekend—I totally respect that. But your decisions determine whether those things happen or not. So, I’ll let you decide. You get to figure that out.

Punishment vs. Consequence 

[Tania] Interesting. And Paul, in your mind, is there a difference between a punishment and a consequence?

[Dr. Paul] That’s a great question. My wife teases me sometimes for being long-winded, so I’ll do my best to keep this concise—but feel free to cut me off. Part of the reason I say that is because it’s a big answer, and my book goes into a lot of detail about the difference between punishment and consequences. There’s a version of a consequence that I think is highly effective, yet most parents don’t know about. Punishment and consequences are entirely different things. I’ll start with punishment. As a psychologist, you learned this in graduate school the same way I did—the strict definition of punishment is when a child does something wrong and receives a penalty. For example, You cursed at me, so now you’re losing your phone for a week. This approach is extremely common. In fact, nearly every parent I’ve met at the beginning of treatment uses some form of punishment like this. However, there are multiple problems with it. The first issue is that research overwhelmingly shows this type of punishment simply doesn’t work. If you’re looking for effective behavior change strategies, leave punishment out of your toolbox because it won’t bring you the results you want. Second, when you take a kid’s phone away for a week, you can’t take it away twice during that same week. This means you lose the leverage that screens provide, limiting your ability to influence behavior. Essentially, you’ve tied your own hands by enforcing a punishment that’s difficult to sustain. The third and most important problem with punishment is that it happens after the child has already misbehaved. When you impose a punishment, such as saying you’ve lost your phone for a week, what do you think the child’s reaction will be? They’ll get angry and lash out. Now, instead of just one problem (the original misbehavior), you have two—the initial issue and an upset, defiant child who is now arguing with you. For these reasons, I don’t recommend punishment. Instead, I advocate for what’s known in psychology as negative reinforcement. However, I think that’s a terrible term—most people don’t really understand what it means. That’s why I’ve rebranded it in my book as Pause, Earn, and Return Reinforcement. Interestingly, this new term wasn’t my idea—it actually came from ChatGPT! I had a long back-and-forth conversation with the AI, explaining that I liked the concept of negative reinforcement but needed a term that parents could easily understand. After going through about 20 different options, we landed on Pause, Earn, and Return Reinforcement, and I absolutely love it. So here’s what it means: When a child is behaving in a way that you don’t approve of, you pause their privileges. For most kids, depending on their age, these privileges typically include screen time. Every child from about five years old and up has access to screens. Teenagers have cell phones, though the age at which they get their first phone varies—usually around 11 or 12. Another common privilege is social time with friends. Sadly, Gen Z kids spend significantly less time in person with their peers, particularly on weekends, but some still have in-person friendships. These privileges—screen time, social time, and other enjoyable activities—are the things that get paused. For example, let’s say a child is speaking to you in a disrespectful way, yelling, or even cursing. Depending on the level of disrespect, I might say something like, Hey, hey, it’s not okay to talk to me that way. Want to try again? If you can speak to me respectfully, I’d be happy to have this conversation with you. If the child responds with, Sorry, sorry, sorry and then speaks reasonably, that’s the entire intervention—start to finish. There are no penalties or further consequences because they corrected their behavior. But let’s say the child responds with, F you, I can talk to you however I want! At that point, it’s time for a consequence. I would say, All right, put your phone on the kitchen counter, and it will stay there for a while—until I feel like you’ve been respectful for a reasonable amount of time. So, the privilege is paused—it’s removed as an option. It is then only returned once it has been earned by the child. One question I always get—and every child will ask their parents when they switch to this approach—is: How long before I get my phone back? And the honest answer—one that is true, but kids don’t like—is: Well, I don’t really know. It all depends on you. You could wow me. You could start impressing me right now by accepting this consequence and making better choices. But maybe you won’t. Maybe you’ll stay mad about it for a while. And you know what? That’s okay. It’s completely fine if you’re upset, but you won’t earn your phone back while you’re being mad. So, you can stay mad for a while and then start earning it, or you can start earning it right now. That choice is up to you. Earning it back means simply doing the things of life—being respectful, following instructions, and behaving appropriately. If you can’t be nice, at the very least, be neutral. You’ve got to be nice to your siblings. You’ve got to do your chores. You’ve got to get your homework done. You’ve got to clean your room when I ask you to. That is how you earn your privileges back. I don’t know how long it will take you to do that. Maybe just an hour or two, and I’ll be wildly impressed. Maybe it will take a day or two—I really don’t know. No kid likes that answer because they really, really want to know exactly how long it will take. They want to white-knuckle their way through the waiting period. But I want to show them that it’s only their behavior that restores privileges, not the passage of time. This goes back to the idea of punishment—You’ve lost your phone for a week. I’m not interested in setting an arbitrary time frame. I care about seeing the behaviors the child should have been exhibiting from the beginning. Sometimes, a short-term consequence—like putting their phone on the kitchen counter for an hour—is perfectly appropriate. That’s just long enough. Kids are miserable without their phones; they’re dying to get them back. An hour is often plenty. I’m not a big believer in long consequences. A child might lose their phone for the remainder of the day, but I wouldn’t tell them that in advance. In my head, I might be thinking it will be for the rest of the day, or maybe the next day at most. I would only recommend pausing privileges for longer than a couple of days in more serious situations—such as property damage or physical aggression. In those cases, the child would need to engage in positive behavior for a longer period before earning their privileges back. That’s the difference. Punishment? I don’t recommend it—but that’s what most parents do. Instead, I advocate for Pause, Earn, and Return. There’s a much more detailed explanation in my book, but the bottom line is: this method works. In fact, in over 40 years of practice, I can think of very few cases where I haven’t seen this strategy be effective. That said, it takes some getting used to—for both parents and kids. It doesn’t work overnight. You have to apply Pause, Earn, and Return over and over and over again until it sinks in. The child needs to feel it in their bones—to fully understand that this is, in fact, what’s going to happen. The only way they learn that is through repetition. So, how long before you start to see a change? A few weeks to a couple of months. Somewhere in that range. But definitely not just a day or two.

The Power of Positive Reinforcement 

[Tania] And it really puts the parent back in the driver’s seat without feeling constrained by it, I said a week ago, and now I can’t go back on it. Everyone gets stressed in that kind of situation. Pause, Earn, and Return—a great one to remember as well. Okay, so Paul, you mentioned negative reinforcement earlier. Can we talk a little bit about positive reinforcement? It’s so much easier to understand, but what does it really look like?

[Dr. Paul] Absolutely. And just to be clear, by talking about Pause, Earn, and Return or negative reinforcement, I don’t mean to imply that parents shouldn’t use positive reinforcement as well. However, when I talk about positive reinforcement, I’m not referring to things like, If you clean your room, I’ll take you out for ice cream. I never recommend that. It’s also not about sticker charts or reward stamps—I’ve never found those to work for more than a couple of days. They require a lot of effort, and in my experience, they don’t lead to long-term behavior change. When I think of positive reinforcement, I focus on the parent’s warm regard and positive interactions with their child when the child is on track and behaving well. Parents are massive reinforcers—probably the best reinforcers there are. One of the best ways to reinforce a child is simply by spending time with them—interacting with them, showing genuine interest in their interests. I use a lot of humor with kids, and I did the same with my own daughters. Even kids who often misbehave have moments where they’re behaving well. That’s the time to lean in heavily and engage with them. I love using absurd humor—saying something completely out of the blue that doesn’t fit the situation. It almost always catches kids off guard and gets them to engage in a fun, playful way. For example, you might suddenly say:  “I think we need a new pet in this house. And I think my first choice is going to be… a chimpanzee! What do you think of that? Do you like chimpanzees? They’re a lot of fun. Wait a minute, hold on—they have to wear diapers because, well, sometimes they throw poop. But we can overlook that. Poop on the wall? What’s the difference? Who cares? Oh, and it’s actually against the law to own a chimpanzee, so we’d have to do it on the down low. What do you think?” Most kids will riff off of that and play along. Even kids who don’t naturally have a great sense of humor can develop one over time with this kind of playful interaction. They might say:  “A chimpanzee? That sounds great! He should sleep in my room!” And now, suddenly, you’re engaging in positive reinforcement without even trying.  I said, “Well, they’re not good with closed doors. I don’t think that would work out very well. But let’s keep talking about this.” So, you spend five or ten minutes talking about the most absurd thing possible. The kid thinks it’s funny. You think it’s funny. In that moment, for no reason other than connection, you’ve reached out and engaged with them. I didn’t have to do this with them. I could have made myself a cup of coffee, scrolled on my phone, or done a hundred different things. But instead, I chose to show them: I know you, I love you, I see you. Now that they’re behaving in a fantastic—or even just neutral—way, I lean in by paying attention to them and using humor. That reinforces the behavior that’s happening in front of me right now. However, when a child is acting out—cursing, yelling, or being disrespectful—I don’t use absurd humor. Instead, I pull back just slightly. My tone and presentation shift—from being the warm, loving dad to calmly making it clear: “I’m not happy with what you’re doing right now. This is not okay with me.” The shift is noticeable, but I’m not yelling, raising my voice, or speaking harshly. I firmly believe that there is never a reason for parents to yell at their kids. I know that might sound crazy to some people at first, but it is entirely doable. I never yelled at my own kids. I didn’t yell at the kids I worked with. And I teach every parent I work with to commit to never raising their voice at their kids again—because there’s simply no need to. Parents yell out of frustration—when the child isn’t complying and they feel like they have no other way to get through to them. But I can teach you how to get kids to listen the first time—or maybe the second at most. So, why yell? What’s there to get mad about if they’re doing what you’re asking? You want your kids to listen to your normal voice—not to the yelling voice. If they only take you seriously when you’re yelling, that’s a sign that something needs to change. Instead, they should be able to recognize: When my parents speak to me in a firm but calm tone, I know they mean business.

[Tania] Huge. Paul, talking about that non-yelling voice—when kids are having an epic meltdown, whether they’re five or 14, what I’m hearing from you is that we’re not necessarily stepping in and doing the whole validating approach. Instead, we’re creating a stronger stance—we’re saying, I’m here, but we’re not joining them in their chaos.

[Dr. Paul] I completely agree with what you just said. There are a lot of parenting influencers and books on this topic, and people see it in different ways. But I feel strongly about this: When a child is having a meltdown, we typically call it a tantrum for younger kids and dysregulation for older kids and teenagers. But really, they mean the same thing. I never recommend that parents stay actively engaged with a child who is tantruming or dysregulated. However, many parenting experts do advocate for this. The reason I don’t believe it works is that I’ve seen plenty of parents try, and instead of calming the child, it actually keeps the dysregulation going. Parents and kids start to ping off each other emotionally. For example, a parent might say: “I can see you’re really frustrated right now. Maybe you could take a few deep breaths. Do you think that would help?” And the child, still in their heightened emotional state, snaps back:  “I’m not taking deep breaths! Deep breaths don’t work! That’s stupid!” At that point, nothing you say is going to penetrate the fog of their frustration. The child is mad, and they’re not going to listen to you. They won’t accept your help. They’re just going to stay mad. So, what works better? Disengagement. You simply say something like: “Look, I can’t have a conversation with you when you’re yelling at me. I’m going to give you some space.” Then, walk away. Turn your back and leave the room. This isn’t ignoring them completely—you’re still listening and keeping an eye on them to make sure they’re safe. But you refuse to engage with their meltdown. You refuse to fuel it. Once the child fully calms down, that’s when you re-engage. For most kids, how long does that take? Anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour or two—but every child will calm down. It’s a biological certainty that everyone eventually self-regulates. What children really need is for parents to step back and let them learn how to regulate their own emotions—without constantly relying on a parent to do it for them. We learn emotional regulation through practice. When the child does calm down, that’s when parents can light back up again:  “I’m so happy you’re back. This is fantastic!” At that point, you might decide to sit down and unpack the tantrum—or maybe you won’t. Not every situation needs to be processed or analyzed. One thing is certain: I will not give you the best of me while you’re giving me the worst of you. This is where we take a break from each other, pause, and give space. Sometimes, therapists challenge me on this. They ask, “Isn’t that abandonment?” Absolutely not. Abandonment is dropping a child off on a street corner and waving goodbye. This? This is not abandonment. You’re in the same house, in the same room, or at most, one room away. You’re still there. You’re still a loving presence. This is simply saying: “I am setting the tone for what’s happening right now. And this? This is not a crisis. This is not the end of the world.” So, I remain calm, matter-of-fact, and in control—because that’s exactly what the child needs to see. I’m going to appear completely unaffected by this tantrum because if a parent starts panicking—”Oh my God, I need to help! What should I do?”—that only energizes the negativity. This is why I firmly believe disengagement is the right approach. It’s exactly what I teach every parent. It’s also what I did years ago when I worked in residential treatment programs with kids who lived there due to their behavioral challenges. I made a conscious effort never to actively engage with a child who was having a tantrum. I also didn’t do it with my own daughters. I had a strong attachment to them then, and I still do today. And not once has this approach damaged our relationship. In fact, I believe it actually strengthens the parent-child bond because it sets clear, healthy boundaries. It’s as simple as saying: “I can’t talk to you when you’re acting this way, so it’s a good idea to calm down.”

[Tania] And Paul, you’ve said the exact same thing about arguments with kids—that when we go back and forth, it only energizes the argument.

[Dr. Paul] Absolutely. And I say this to my parents too, and at first, they think I’m crazy. There’s never a reason to argue with a kid or a teenager. An argument, by definition, is when two people are speaking back and forth, right? So the way you end an argument with a kid is by stopping your end of the equation. If one person stops talking, it is, by definition, no longer an argument—it’s just the kid up on a soapbox or monologuing. Not that you can’t talk to kids about things or try to collaborate with them—of course, you can. But once it becomes an argument, and everybody knows when they’re in an argument—people interrupting, voices getting elevated, the kid speaking more harshly or rapidly—you know it’s an argument. In the vast majority of instances, arguments in families happen because you’re telling a kid to do something they don’t want to do. Fundamentally, you’re telling them “no.” They don’t like “no,” so they keep at you again and again, hoping to turn that “no” into a “yes”—or at the very least, level the playing field by making you angry and distressed because you’ve asked them to do something they don’t want to do. It’s fairly easy to sidestep an argument. You simply say, “I’m not going to argue with you about this. I’ve told you what you need to do. I’m not going to ask you again. This is the end of the conversation.” Then, you get up and walk away. When you walk away from someone, you’re clearly signifying that the conversation is over. Now, the kid may follow you around the house, haranguing you, but you just don’t engage. You remain disengaged and refuse to argue. “I won’t argue with you. It is perfectly reasonable for me to ask you to do your homework. It’s up to you to do it—that’s your decision to make. But, like every parent, I expect you to do your homework and turn it in on time. This isn’t a fight; there is no gray area here. This is you doing your homework, and this is me asking you to do it.”

[Tania] I love it. Well, you know, I think that’s what I find so powerful about your work and your book. I hear from so many parents that many of the strategies we’re more familiar with don’t work with our strong-willed children. Your book is full of practical strategies that parents can implement immediately.

[Dr. Paul] Exactly, yes. Every intervention or strategy in that book is what I consider battle-tested—meaning I’ve used it with countless families, who have, in turn, used it with their kids tens of thousands of times over the years. When I was younger, I tried many techniques to change kids’ behavior that simply didn’t work at all, so I stopped using them. But every once in a while, I would land on something that actually did work, and that became part of my toolbox. Over time, my toolbox has grown enormously. As you said, these strategies are very practical—it’s like a roadmap. The book’s style is very conversational and easy to understand, yet it provides clear, step-by-step guidance on handling the most common behavior challenges parents face: noncompliance, disrespect, chores, homework, sibling fights—there’s a chapter on all of these issues.

[Tania] Beautiful, incredible. Paul, for our listeners who want to find out more about you.

[Dr. Paul] Well, the book is available just about everywhere. Most people go to Amazon or Barnes & Noble. It’s Gentle Parenting Reimagined: How to Make It Work with Oppositional and Defiant Kids. You can find me easily. I’ve developed a form of mental health care for children and teenagers called Intensive Family-Focused Therapy (IFFT). The website is https://www.myiift.org/, where you can find a ton of information about what this treatment is and who it’s intended for. There’s a tab labeled Results where you can see our outcomes, which I think are outstanding. The kids we work with typically have long-standing mental health conditions, engage in very serious behaviors, and have not responded to prior treatments—so these are really challenging cases. The website also includes a link to the book and plenty of other resources. That’s probably the best place to start if you want to learn more.

[Tania] Beautiful! We’ll link it in the description below the podcast so everyone can find it. Thank you so much for your time. This has been a truly great conversation—very refreshing and a different approach that I think is highly practical.

[Dr. Paul] Oh, thank you, Tania. I appreciate that, and thanks for the opportunity to be on your podcast today. Bye-bye.

[Tania] Thank you.