Child Psych Podcast Episode #129

[Tania Johnson] Hello and welcome to the Child Psych Podcast. I’m Tania Johnson—registered psychologist, registered play therapist, and co-founder of the Institute of Child Psychology. Today, we’re going to be interviewing Rebecca Geshuri, who is a licensed marriage and family therapist certified in perinatal mental health, internal family systems, and brain spotting. Rebecca is also the founder of Second Street Collective. I’m very excited about today’s conversation. We’re going to be talking about the good mom/bad mom loop. Welcome, Rebecca.

[Rebecca Geshuri] Thanks so much for having me, Tania.

The Good Mom/Bad Mom Loop

[Tania] I’ve been really excited about this. I know we’ve been trying to organize it for a while. So, the good mom/bad mom loop—for everyone listening, can you explain to us what this actually is?

[Rebecca] Yeah. In my work with moms in particular, I’ve found there’s a predictable pattern many fall into—a loop of feeling like their needs aren’t being met and that they’re failing at everything: motherhood, their jobs, being a partner. This loop tends to form when a mom’s own needs start to surface, but she feels torn between those and her child’s needs. Naturally, the child’s needs come first—that’s what we’re “supposed” to do as good moms, right? I’m using air quotes here because I don’t believe in the good mom/bad mom dichotomy, but society often frames it that way: you’re good if you sacrifice everything for your child and bad if you don’t. But the truth is, both the mother’s and the child’s needs are important. So, when a mom begins to want something more for herself but is also juggling her child’s needs, these responsible parts of her tend to inhibit her own desires. Eventually, that inner tension builds until it reaches a breaking point. That’s when outbursts happen—moms may yell, slam a door, walk away, or just zone out on their phones with social media. That might relieve some of the pressure temporarily, but it doesn’t address the root of the issue: that the mom’s needs still aren’t being met. And when I say “needs,” I’m not just talking about basic things like eating, taking a break, or using the bathroom. I mean the deeper emotional needs—what I often call the inner baby’s needs—the ones that perhaps weren’t met during her own childhood. These inner wounds often go unnoticed or unacknowledged, and that causes deeper pain. Moms may start to feel lost—not just in their roles as mothers, but as people. They have a deep need to feel seen, understood, and to belong—not just as a mom, but as a human being. So, after the outburst—what I sometimes call an “inburst” if it turns inward—the shame creeps in. The inner critic kicks in: “I can’t believe you just slammed the door. Your kid didn’t need to see that. You should feel terrible.” Then shame takes over. And along with that, there’s often grief—grief around how different motherhood is from what we expected or fantasized about. And in our society—let’s be honest, in patriarchal America—we’re not really allowed to grieve what we’ve lost. And to be clear, I’m not saying motherhood is terrible. I have three kids, and I adore them. I actually love and enjoy being a mom. But there are a lot of things I’ve had to compromise or give up—my own wants, needs, identity—to be of service to them. And while that’s a choice, it’s not an easy one. So the loop goes like this: a mom starts to feel her own desires, but she suppresses them for her child’s needs. That builds up, leading to an outburst or inburst. Then shame or grief sets in. And if that cycle isn’t interrupted, it just keeps repeating.

The Hidden Struggles of Motherhood: Shame, Expectations, and the Path to Healing

[Tania] Rebecca, I know there’s a whole group of moms out there listening right now going, “You just explained my experience perfectly.” Because I think so often there’s so much shame and guilt around parenting—and we’re talking about moms in particular today, so we can say mothering—that people often keep these cycles very close to themselves.

[Rebecca] Yeah, there’s so much shame. Even just speaking out loud—and I’m going to call it a truth—that being a mom is hard. It’s a job, and it can be very hard. And if you say that out loud, then I picture myself kind of shrinking into the corner. Because someone outside might say, “What? Being a mom is supposed to be the best job ever!” And especially, you know, I see this a lot with moms who worked really hard to have kids—via IVF or something like that. I’ve known moms who tried for 10 years to have a child, and when they finally do, it’s still very difficult. Then they feel so much shame because they think they should just love it.

[Tania] Yeah. Mothering particularly—what is it about mothering that puts so many moms into this arena?

[Rebecca] Well, I think it’s a combination of things. First, it’s societal messages—this idea that we should mother a certain way. Incidentally, I saw something this morning while scrolling on Instagram—someone (and I wish I could remember the author’s name; I’ll have to look it up) has a book coming out called something like The Pause Effect. It’s about changing the paradigm around stay-at-home moms. There’s so much judgment around that role, and the author argues it is a job like any other. She’s trying to change how we think about that, which I really appreciated. So yes, societal messaging plays a big role. Then there’s family-of-origin messaging, depending on how you grew up—what the expectations were for you as a child and young adult, maybe even in high school. What your family expected of you, how your own mother mothered. And quite frankly, we’re all doing the best we can with what we have, but sometimes we don’t get good role models. So it becomes really hard to know: How am I supposed to show up? And then there’s the physiological aspect too. Honestly, hormones are real—they set us up to be highly attuned to our babies, especially in the postpartum period. That time kind of sets the tone for how hard it might be down the line. At the same time, it’s also a huge opportunity for healing. I feel like motherhood is probably the most plastic, adaptable time in a woman’s life—besides being born. It’s also the most powerful opportunity for growth and healing.

[Tania] Rebecca, as we talk about healing, you had mentioned the wounded parts within. Can we go back to that?

Healing Through Understanding Our Protective Parts

[Rebecca] Yeah, yeah. So the modality of therapy that I use the most is Internal Family Systems, or IFS. And the reason I love it is because it’s based on the fundamental belief that we are all made up of multiple parts. We contain different aspects of ourselves—some that protect us and some that are wounded. So, some parts are vulnerable, and some are protectors. IFS is very non-pathologizing. We believe that you’re not broken. You were born whole, and you remain whole. But these protective parts step in and, you know, sometimes derail you. Like, if you have an angry part that comes up and starts yelling at your family, that’s not going to create connection in your relationships. But if you can start to understand why that angry part is showing up, then you begin to have more choices. So, to answer your question—usually, underneath all of those protective parts are what we call “exiled parts.” I also like to call them “inner babies” or “inner children”—the parts that have been wounded throughout your life, whether from major trauma or just difficult, stressful situations. And those parts really need care. They need tending from the outside—from people who care, whether that’s partners, friends, therapists, acupuncturists, or anyone supportive. But more importantly, they also need care from you—from what IFS calls the Self (with a capital S). You can think of the Self as your true nature, your Buddha nature, your soul—really, the core of who you are. And that’s where the deepest healing comes from. That doesn’t mean you don’t seek external support, but building a relationship with those hurting parts of yourself—that’s where long-term healing really begins.

[Tania] So those inner babies—I love that phrase, actually—those inner babies… are we always aware of what they are?

[Rebecca] That’s the tricky part, right? Because, no, we’re often not aware of them. It’s very typical for humans to have knee-jerk reactions to things, and we usually have no idea that there’s an inner baby underneath all of that. There’s a writer, Viktor Frankl, whom many people know, and he said, “Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose.” So, when you can slow down—even if it’s just for a millisecond—it doesn’t have to be some big drawn-out thing. But when you’re in a situation where you start to feel activated, you can pay attention to the cues in your body: maybe your stomach is churning, your palms get sweaty, or there’s a buzzing in your ears. That’s your body saying, Hey, something’s going on. And if you can just take a moment and pause, you create that space for choice. You can still choose to yell or slam the door, sure. But you also have the option to say, “Gosh, what just happened that made my angry part come up? Maybe we should talk about that.” And that shift changes the atmosphere—in the room, in the relationship. It opens the door to connection instead of conflict.

[Tania] That angry part—I’ve got a couple of questions here. So, the angry part, and then we have our protective parts.

[Rebecca] So, an angry part would be a protective part.

[Tania] Got it. So, the angry part is the inner baby, and it’s also the protective part.

[Rebecca] No, let me clarify. So, the angry part would be a protective part, and the inner baby would be a part that’s wounded that the angry part is protecting.

[Tania] Got it. That makes sense. That makes sense. Okay. So, I love the quote. I love your quote. Wow. I love that quote from Viktor Frankl about the pause that we have—that choice. So, let’s say somebody goes, “This is my angry part coming up right now, which is my protective part.” What do they do then if they don’t know where it’s from or where it’s coming from? What’s next?

[Rebecca] Well, there’s a saying in IFS, which is speaking for your part, not from your part. So, speaking from your part would be saying, “I’m so angry. I hate you. You’re a terrible person.” Right? That would be speaking from the angry part. Speaking for the angry part would be like what I said earlier: “I’m feeling an angry part come up. Let me see if I can connect with it,” right? And then taking that pause. I’m not sure I answered your question.

[Tania] You did. I think that is beautiful because it’s not that we have to necessarily do anything. It’s the recognition of the part.

[Rebecca] That’s right. I think it’s really all about acknowledging, first and foremost, that we have parts. Because I think humans, in our modern culture, have been taught that our mind is separate from our body and that we’re all one thing. And if you agree with this concept of multiplicity, then that means you’re crazy, right? That you have some disorder, like multiple personality disorder or dissociative identity disorder, which is not actually true. We all have parts. We say, “There’s a part of me that wants to go to the party tonight, and there’s a part of me that just wants to get in bed and watch a movie.” And that’s actually very normal. So, I think a lot of it is really about acknowledging the fact that we do have many facets of ourselves, and they all matter. They’re all there for a reason. Every single one of them has a good intention, even the ones that we don’t like, even the ones that feel harmful. They all have good intentions. They’re all really protecting our vulnerability. And if you can kind of just get behind that fundamental philosophy, then the rest of it sort of falls into place in a way because it helps you slow down and listen. I think that’s the other thing: it’s really deeply listening. It’s all about slowing down and listening. And that’s what we want to do with our kids too, right? For them to get that modeling is just great for relationships in general.

[Tania] And Rebecca, I love what you’re saying is that, instead of pushing it down or putting some sort of more cognitive strategy to it, it really is just welcoming that place and space within you and saying, “You’re there. I see you. There’s a story. I might not know what the story is, but hello.”

[Rebecca] Yes, that’s so beautiful the way you said that. It’s really a curiosity, you know? Like, what is going on inside of me right now? Why am I feeling this way? Can I connect with what’s actually hurting? Is it grief that I’m feeling? Right? Grief is natural and a part of life that helps process and wash us clean from the inside out, you know? So, really acknowledging those things that are human. And, you know, we get sort of swept away by productivity and doing all the time. I live in Silicon Valley, so, you know, it’s a lot.

Understanding Grief and Identity Shifts in Motherhood

[Tania] Yeah, Rebecca, it’s interesting that you bring up grief as one of those parts because I do a lot of work with kids and their families, with their parents. And grief is one that I often hear from the parents coming in, especially from our moms. And I think in motherhood, there really is so much grief that we never talk about.

[Rebecca] Yeah, and I wouldn’t even say grief is a part per se. Grief is sort of a… I don’t know, like I said, it’s a natural way of being when something is lost. Sometimes there is ambiguous loss, right? It’s not necessarily a loss of a human or something tangible. It’s the loss of a fantasy or a dream or… you know? And we live in a very grief-averse society. We don’t want to acknowledge it. Tears are not usually welcome. And, you know, when I’m with clients, sometimes they apologize for crying. And I keep saying, “There’s no need to apologize, especially in my office. All your tears are welcome.” I had a teacher once who I quote all the time because I just love what she said. She said, “Tears water the heart.” Isn’t that beautiful? Just… yeah, thank you, Cindy Gum. I don’t even know if she’s still teaching, but that really stuck with me all these years because I imagine, you know, when I cry, my heart just grows bigger and bigger, making room for more and more love. And what else do we really need in life, right?

[Tania] Absolutely, absolutely. Okay, question here. So, as you mentioned, grief can be a process. How do we know if grief is just this natural process? And like I said, so many moms are mourning the loss of maybe who they were before kids. Often, for many of us, it’s happening without us being able to tap into what it is. We can just feel that something feels different. How do we know the difference between grief being a process and grief being a protective part?

[Rebecca] Well, I don’t really think of grief as a protective part. I think maybe there’s another part that would be in the way of feeling the grief, protecting you from feeling the grief, right? Because, again, it’s unacceptable. Like maybe there’s a critic or something nearby saying, “You shouldn’t be grieving this again. You should love being a mom. You shouldn’t be having an identity crisis right now, right? You should just accept it and move on.” So, you know, it’s kind of teasing those things apart. And sometimes you need help to tease that apart, whether it’s a friend or a therapist, just to help you reflect on, “What is it that I’m really feeling? Is it really this deep grief that I’m feeling, or is there another part of me that needs some attention?” You know, do I want to go back to work? Asking yourself practical questions like that can help reveal these parts of you that need some attention. Hopefully that answered your question.

[Tania] It does. So for our moms out there and we’ve spoken quite a bit about our moms who just had a baby, who’ve got little ones in the house and they’re suddenly going, “Rebecca, I just feel like a big mess right now, like a puddle of messiness.” Where do they start?

[Rebecca Geshuri] Yeah. Well, first of all, I totally get it. I’ve been there three times. It is messy. So let’s just start by acknowledging that it’s messy. And you know what? Give yourself some grace. Excuse me — and again, acknowledge the truth that sometimes it’s going to be hard. But you don’t have to do it alone, and you actually are not alone. I get that there are moms who are parenting alone — they’re single parenting and I would encourage you to find your community, whether that’s other single moms, trusted friends, or people who will really listen to you. Not the kind of people who turn things around and make it about them when you’re having a hard time. And I think that’s part of the reason, quite frankly, why people seek out therapists — because it’s truly a space where it can just be about you, and nobody else, and you can really be heard. So, finding your community is really, really important and not being isolated. I feel like since the pandemic, it’s gotten even worse. We’ve been running an Adjusting to Motherhood group for years. When I was doing it pre-pandemic, we’d have 20 moms in a room sometimes — with their babies, all their gear and it was a little bit of pandemonium, honestly. But it was fun, deep, meaningful, and major connections were made. Now, getting people into a group has been very, very challenging. I don’t know if you’ve seen that too?

[Tania] We’ve seen it too. Yeah, in our presentations and workshops — it’s so difficult.

[Rebecca] Yeah, it’s frustrating because, as mental health practitioners, we also know that isolation is a risk factor for depression and anxiety and all of those things. So we have to find our people — and sometimes that takes a little nudging. Finding community, and then again, really getting curious about what’s going on inside of you. What is it that I’m feeling right now? Can I pause for a second and just notice okay, what is that feeling in my stomach? What is that saying to me? And I know it sounds a little bit woo-woo, but it’s the only way I really know how. Because those body sensations come before your logical mind kicks in. And we can’t really make choices or reason without first paying attention to what’s going on in the body. It just makes the most sense. That’s why they call IFS, Brainspotting, EMDR any of those types of modalities somatic experiencing. They’re all bottom-up, meaning we pay attention to what’s going on in the body before we start reasoning through what’s happening. It’s just, I think, a really powerful way of living your life — not just something to do in a therapy session.

[Tania] Absolutely. And I think, Rebecca, what I love about that approach is, instead of going, “Okay, what’s my list? How do I get more organized so I feel better?” we first go into, “What is my gut telling me? What is my chest telling me? What is my head telling me?” 

[Rebecca] Yes. And you can go back and forth. I had a client once come to me. It was our consultation, the first 15 minutes and she said, “I really don’t want to talk about my feelings.” And I said to her, “Okay, well, let me tell you I have a very practical part of me as well. And I hear that you really want me to help you figure out how to manage your life postpartum. However, alongside that, I’m always contemplating and wondering what is going on underneath your feeling of being overwhelmed right now? What is it that we really need to tend to?” And I’m not going to make you go there right now, because that’s just not how I work. And I don’t believe it helps to push people past where they’re ready to go. But, you know, we can also make a list. If you have a part of you that needs to make a list  to help get it out of your mind and onto a piece of paper so it’s not sitting in your body great, let’s do that. And also, let’s go to that part of you that’s feeling exhausted, and find out what it’s trying to do for you and what its hopes and fears are.

[Tania] It’s powerful. It’s powerful. As you were giving that example, the one thing that really resonates with me is: It’s just a part of me. It’s not all of me.

[Rebecca] Yes, yes, absolutely. I find that incredibly powerful too. It takes a lot of the shame out.

[Tania] Totally, totally. And you’re able to see the other aspects—it’s like, actually, I am also this creative soul. I am all of these other things. Rebecca, for all of our moms listening in, do you have any final thoughts?

[Rebecca] That’s such a hard question—any final thoughts? You have everything you need inside of you. I know it doesn’t always feel that way, but I want to remind moms out there that you matter, you’re not alone, and you were born whole—no matter what messages you’re receiving from the world around you. This is a truth I deeply believe: you are not broken; you are whole. And you have everything within you that you need to heal what’s hurting. Sometimes it’s incredibly helpful to receive support in that process, but in the meantime, slow down as best you can, and listen to what your needs truly are. Try making it a practice not to ignore your needs or shame yourself if things don’t go the way you’d hoped. Be extra kind to yourself—because parenting is no easy feat. You are literally creating and raising a human being or multiple human beings and that is nothing short of a miracle. So please, take a moment to pat yourself on the back for that.

[Tania] So beautiful, Rebecca, where can everybody find you?

[Rebecca] You can find me at my website: https://www.rebeccageshurilmft.com. That’s where you’ll find my private practice, my content, and a link to sign up for my newsletter on Substack. Also, if you’re in California, Second Street Collective is the name of my business. It’s a group of licensed mental health practitioners, each running their own private practices. We support each other in meaningful work, and many of them are accepting new clients. We offer in-person sessions in Campbell, California, and telehealth services all across the state.

[Tania] So beautiful. Thank you so much, Rebecca.

[Rebecca] Thank you so much, Tania.