Child Psych Podcast Episode #135

[Tania Johnson] Hello and welcome to the Child Psych Podcast. I’m Tania Johnson, registered psychologist, registered play therapist, co-founder of the Institute of Child Psychology, and probably most importantly, a mom. I am thrilled to be here today with Josette Calleja. Welcome, Josette.

[Josette Calleja] Tania, thanks for having me.

[Tania] Quick introduction to Unplugged Canada. Unplugged Canada’s mission is to educate parents about the risks of early smartphone use and inspire a collective commitment to restore childhood. Through advocacy, resources, and an online pledge—which we’re going to talk more about—Unplugged Canada empowers parents to unite in creating a smartphone-free childhood. So many questions for you, Josette. Where do we even start? Let’s start with how Unplugged Canada came to be.

[Josette Calleja] Okay, so it was founded by Jenny Perez, who has such a passion for kids’ mental health. For her to see the deterioration that’s happening with our children in so many societies—not just our own, but across the world, particularly in developed nations—she really wanted to take action. She knew about Wait Until Eighth in the US, so she called the founder of Wait Until Eighth and asked, “Hey, can we have a chapter for that in Canada?” Brooke Shannon, who’s the founder there, said, “You know, I’m kind of keeping this in the US, but you might want to start your own movement, and I’d be happy to support you.” So that’s what Jenny did, and it was all driven by passion. She and I both have nine-year-old children. We’re trying to create some sort of container—we’re hoping that there’s some containment by the time our kids reach the age where the expectation is that they’re going to ask for a phone. We really want to do our part in changing that trend.

[Tania] It’s crazy. I’ve got a nine-year-old kiddo too, and it’s high on our minds already. Wait Until Eighth—for people who aren’t familiar—can you talk a little bit about what that is and why that was the seed of where this all started?

[Josette Calleja] Okay, so Wait Until 8th was also—it’s essentially a grassroots parent movement to keep children off of phones until grade 8. They have now made it until the end of grade 8. So if you can at least wait until that time, you’re a little bit ahead of the game. And so ours is—what we say, our pledge is—keep your child smartphone-free until the age of 14.

The Risks of Early Smartphone Use

[Tania] Okay. And reasons for that? I know that this is something that parents all over the world are grappling with: when do I give my kid a phone and what do I need to be aware of?

[Josette Calleja] So many things, Tania. I mean, when you give your child a smartphone, you are opening up a world that I think they’re absolutely not ready for. The amount of inappropriate content from various—not just websites, but essentially the apps that they have access to—can be incredibly dangerous to their development. The sleep deprivation that comes with it, all the attention fragmentation, the risk of addiction—like this addiction is so real in our children—social isolation, cyberbullying. It just opens up a world that they’re really not ready for.

Gender Differences and Development Concerns

[Tania] And they’re so little still. Sorry, I’m going to sneeze. They’re still so incredibly little at 14 anyway, aren’t they?

[Josette Calleja] Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, and then there’s the whole gender thing. How does it affect them differently? You know, the research does show depression higher in girls, but it shows that boys kind of check out of society a little bit, and they get into gaming a lot more than girls do. You don’t really want to expose them—particularly the boys—to inappropriate content like porn, right? There’s, unfortunately, it’s kind of a—you know, nobody really likes to talk about this, but there are 12-year-olds addicted to porn already.

[Tania] Yeah. Yeah. So Josette, for those parents who go, “Okay, so when, why?”—what are your thoughts on an appropriate age? Can you tell me why you have chosen the age that you’ve chosen? Why has Unplugged Canada chosen the age that they’ve chosen?

[Josette Calleja] Okay, so initially when we talked about this, Jenny and I, we wanted it to be a little bit older, but we knew that it would be a really tough battle. And 14 was a place where we felt we could get a win. So in grade eight, I think kids are 13. At 14, in most provinces, they’re starting high school. Here in BC, actually, high school starts in grade eight. So we just felt 14 was a good place to start from. It’s also what Jonathan Haidt recommends. But I think—I want to say that the 14 piece is getting the phone. But then let’s really, even if they get some form of phone, you want to keep them off social media until at least the age of 16. And I think that’s really—it’s a battle, but it’s a battle I think we have to be prepared to fight as parents.

Addressing Safety Concerns and Alternatives

[Tania] And what is your response to parents when they say, “My kid needs a phone for safety so they can connect with me”? What are your thoughts on that?

[Josette Calleja] So yes, I hear that all the time. Every parent has their own comfort level in terms of the level of connection they need with their child. If they absolutely want to be connected, there are different alternatives. You can have a dumb phone rather than a smartphone, like a flip phone. You can get those off Amazon for like $45, $50. There’s a gradual entry. There are others—I suppose you could use a Garmin watch as well. But I would also ask parents, “Why do you have this need for connection?” And really start to examine that because we do tend to over parent, and we’re overparenting to a point where sometimes it’s suffocating our kids and stifling them from moving forward. So I think we have to balance that very carefully, but there are alternatives. So when a child asks for a phone, you don’t have to say no. You can say “not yet,” you know, and I think we need to empathize with our children, but we really need to hold that boundary—to protect them.

Technology as a Tool vs. Abstinence Approach

[Tania] Absolutely. Yeah. And for parents that say, you know, that the abstinence approach doesn’t work, that technology is here and it’s better to teach our kids and give them a phone early so they can actually learn how to use it as a tool. What are your thoughts on that?

[Josette Calleja] So I mean, I agree—technology is here to stay. But technology doesn’t necessarily mean a smartphone either, right? Like there’s a range of technology. I think our kids can still use a laptop. They can still use—I mean, iPads get a little touchy because, you know, obviously there are apps and such with that. So you want to make it age-appropriate. And I really stress this gradual entry. If you’re going to open yourself up to allowing this, then what boundaries are you going to set? What kind of contract are you going to set with your child? What kind of conversations are you going to have?

We have to educate our children on the harms. If they don’t understand that and we say no as a parent, that’s when the disconnection happens between parent and child. We want our children to trust us. Trust comes from building trust over time and from being transparent with them and authentic. So if they understand that when we say no, it’s coming from a place of love and concern, they’re much more likely to accept that no. They may still be really upset about it, but we need to hold that boundary.

I think the other thing is let’s teach our kids resilience so that they can be okay in the face of others with phones, right? Like, if their friends have a phone, I want my child to be like, “I get that you have a phone, but you know, in our family, we don’t—my mom doesn’t allow it” or “my parents don’t allow it.” And it’s okay to say that. And if I’ve given them 10 reasons why they can’t have a phone, I’m hoping that will build some confidence and leadership skills so that they can say, “I’m okay with this for now.”

Having the Conversation with Your Own Child

[Tania] So with your child right now, are you already having these conversations with them about your thoughts on the phone and why you don’t want them to have access to a phone?

[Josette Calleja] 100%. Yeah, he’s very well aware of it. He knows that he’s not getting a phone. You know, right now we’re saying 14. I don’t know what it will become in a couple of years. What I’m hoping is that in a couple of years there are enough parents that have signed the pledge, you know, on our platform like Unplugged Canada, to say that there are so many people who feel this way that in a couple of years, the norm is not that every child has a phone, right? We begin to reverse that trend.

My hope is in five to 10 years, if we see a child with a smartphone, it will be as surprising as seeing a toddler with Coca-Cola, right? That’s where we need to get. And you know, Tania, we can’t rely on government policies to take care of our kids. And we can’t rely on these big tech companies to take care of our kids. It’s just not happening fast enough. So as parents, we need to unite. And if we can all unite and feel this way, it just gives more impetus and encouragement for other parents to follow those same footsteps.

The Challenge of Standing Alone

[Tania] And I think that’s often what I’ve heard from parents—that something feels off with the rush to give kids technology, but they feel really, really alone. And I think that’s one of the biggest obstacles that parents face: all the friends are getting a phone, my kid keeps asking me, and eventually we kind of cave and go, “OK, I’m going to keep those limits up. I’m going to keep checking in on their phone.” But I think eventually the tide of social media does pull children away.

[Josette Calleja] Totally, totally. I think we fool ourselves as parents by thinking that we can manage this. And the other thing—you touched on something where I think you said it doesn’t really feel right for parents to give a phone. I think most parents feel that queasiness, like, “Am I doing the right thing?” But we do it because everybody else is doing it. And so what do we need to do? We need to speak up, and we need to unite. I think we need to talk to each other, talk to the neighbors. And I hear so many parents tell me how their child is changing in front of them after they’ve had a phone. And so many examples that are so hurtful come to mind. It’s just such a slippery slope. So why are we risking it? All because we don’t want to isolate them. And I always say, we have to balance that fear of isolating our kids with the more realistic outcome of what can happen by giving it to them when they’re not ready.

[Tania] Absolutely, absolutely. And I know Unplugged Canada—a big part of your mandate is kind of reclaiming childhood for our kids. And when you think about that, what does that mean exactly?

[Josette Calleja] Absolutely. My God, you know, Tania, I am such an advocate for outdoor connections and real-life connections. And, you know, you could walk down—so thankfully now the schools are phone-free, at least in some provinces, and it’s great to see—but prior to that, you could walk in a schoolyard after school and see a row of children sitting beside each other, all on their cell phones, looking down, not communicating, not playing.

So reclaiming childhood is about being connected to the outdoors and being connected to others, but also being connected to self, you know? And I feel like the children that are coming through this today, there’s just no time to sit with yourself because every minute of the day that they have free, they are attached to a phone. I have been on vacation with families who have young teens, and they’re walking into walls because they’re moving from one room to another looking at their cell phone.

And you know, Tania, when I hear things like—if my son’s at a pool party and there’s a boy who wants to come out of the pool because he’s dying to go play a video game—it breaks my heart. Kids are wanting to leave their camping sites to go back home to game, or to leave a theme park when they’re on vacation because they want to get back to their phones. So how can you have any connection to others or to the beautiful, natural outdoors when you’re just consistently fixated on trying to get that instant gratification, that dopamine fix from a smartphone?

The Impact on Self-Knowledge and Identity

[Tania] One of the things I see in practice with teen girls particularly is very often, as you talk about that kind of knowledge of self, that knowledge of self becomes knowledge of others. So there’s a lot of awareness of what’s happening on their social media, what’s happening, who’s liking their reels, whatever it may be. But there’s a lot of anxiety that goes outwards instead of stabilizing the core of who I am and who I want to be in the world.

[Josette Calleja] And they can’t even begin to understand that because they’re so consumed by the comparative nature that social media brings to them—trying to figure out who to be influenced by, right? This is the other thing we’re losing: real live mentors. And their mentors are becoming influencers on social media who may not at all align with the values that you were trying to instill in your child and all that home life stuff that is so important.

So I feel like we need to get back to real-life mentors and having children get to know who they are rather than just constantly—because you can’t—I mean, it’s a practice of mindfulness and meditation. And how can you know yourself if your mind is continuously looking at a screen that is feeding you all kinds of messages that are coming at you like a hundred miles an hour? It’s impossible to create a pause for yourself. And that to me is very scary. It’s just a void that these children are going to have.

[Tania] And I think that there are many adults who struggle with that too. Who am I without the constant allure of technology or my phone or the next notification?

[Josette Calleja] Yeah, you know, 100%. And one of the things I always tell parents is that the only way we’re going to succeed at this is by setting an example. We are the leaders in the home, right? In a family unit, your parents are your leaders and they’re going to look to you. You know, sometimes—listen, I enjoy the odd scroll on Instagram myself, you know, full transparency. And sometimes, generally if I’m on the phone around my son, it’s usually because I’m doing emails. But he’ll call me out on it and I’ll be like, “You’re right.” And I try to make the distinction that it’s a work email, as if I’m giving myself some grace. But the reality is, we absolutely have to set boundaries for ourselves and set an example.

Individual Maturity vs. Chronological Age

[Tania] Josette, we have the wonderful opportunity on this podcast to interview a variety of different people who have different feelings around phones. And one of our speakers had spoken about the fact that he felt that children reach maturity at different stages. So one 14-year-old is not like another 14-year-old. So phone age should be based on maturity versus chronological age.

[Josette Calleja] So yes, I would agree. But when you’ve got a movement like ours, we try to keep it as simple as possible. But absolutely, as a parent, you have to know your child. And then there’s the aspect of when there’s neurodiversity, like ADHD as an example. Well, that means they’re even more prone to addiction. So is 14 the right age for that child? Maybe not. So I think you absolutely have to know your child and their maturity level. But I’d say 14 is just our baseline. It’s not the magic number. It’s just, please don’t do it before then at the very least.

[Tania] Got it. Got it. So for parents who have already given their kiddos phones, what are your thoughts? What are your ideas on that?

[Josette Calleja] So I think you can unwind a little bit. I totally get it. Here’s an example—I think actually this is one of Jonathan Haidt’s examples, so I won’t take credit for it. But I think in his book The Anxious Generation, he talks about if you knew that your child was on a train or on a bus that was about to implode, would you not do everything possible to rein that back?

You can. Now, I would say to a child, “We know more now about smartphones than we did two years ago,” or you use concrete examples. “I actually see some behavior changes in you and I suspect it might be coming from this,” or “Let’s set some boundaries. You know, I know I let you use it in the bedroom before, but you know what? We’re going to put a stop to this because I’ve noticed your sleep patterns are changing. You’re more tired in the morning. And I need to help—I need to help protect you. If you’re not going to protect yourself, as your parents, I am going to step in and I’m going to create that boundary for you because you can’t create it.”

And I think that all depends on the age and the context of the child. You know, the narrative around why we’re not giving a smartphone to a child—I’m going to talk to an eight-year-old differently than I’m going to talk to a 14-year-old. If I’m talking to a 14-year-old, I’m also going to explain how these tech giants work, how these algorithms work, how they’re completely designed to capture you and keep you there for as long as possible. In fact, we know that the younger we get you, the longer we keep you, right?

So teens can comprehend that, and they don’t want to be a victim of that—nobody wants to be that victim. So I think by truly just giving them the knowledge and the information so that it looks like they’re coming up with their own decision and it’s not just mom or dad saying no—that doesn’t work, right? But “no” with “here’s all these reasons why” or “not yet”—I think that’s a bit more palatable.

Technology Conversations as Ongoing Consent Education

[Tania] As you’re talking, it actually reminds me of a lot of the discussions now around consent. So we used to just think that it was a one-and-done conversation, right? Mom and dad opened up this embarrassing conversation and we all kind of squirmed until the conversation was done. But now we know that consent is a conversation that has to be developmentally appropriate and it’s ongoing with our children. And as you talk about technology, it sounds exactly the same. Exactly what you’re saying here is that it’s an ongoing conversation that is adjusted as the child develops so that they know what the reasons are and it becomes more of a joint decision instead of “this is mom putting something onto you.”

[Josette Calleja] Right, right. Yeah, definitely. And so, you know, I think your question is, what do you say to parents who’ve already given it? I do think there’s hope. I think you can unwind. And the other thing I would encourage is, even if they do have a phone, what does it feel like to be smartphone-free for a day and have that child sort of experience that? And are they feeling anxious? Are they feeling like they’re just incomplete that day? That speaks volumes.

If you can then have a rational conversation to say, “You know, that felt really tough for you. So what does that tell you?” Right? Let’s see what they come up with. But it’s like that whole feeling of withdrawal. If you’re feeling that withdrawal, then there’s a problem. You know, if it feels like, “Hey, you know what, Mom, that was okay”—but I don’t think that’s how teenagers feel. When they’ve done some studies in the UK with certain schools where they took their phones away, the kids say they’re anxious for a little bit and they were really concerned about it. But after some time of not having it, they figure it out again, you know? And they do start talking and they’re way more focused in class and they’re connecting to each other. So Tania, I wholeheartedly believe that we can change this.

[Tania] Absolutely. Yeah. And one of the things that I often say when clients come in and the focus is on the client’s tech use—let’s say it’s a teenager—is that defenses come up really quickly until I pull in the whole family and we sit as a whole family and go, “Let’s talk about everybody’s tech use. And what do we want in terms of technology? Where are we putting limits? What are we all agreeing to?” And the conversation shifts altogether when the kid goes, “Oh, okay, good. It’s not just me. And yes, Dad is on his phone a lot. Mom takes her phone to bed every night. Let’s talk about everybody.” And suddenly there’s a whole climate shift in the conversation.

[Josette Calleja] Yeah, yeah, I would agree. I think, you know, Tania, it doesn’t get addressed because parents know the concerns they have with their own tech use, right? And then they feel hypocritical telling their children. I also think this is a really huge problem because I was really surprised when we were doing all of these seminars through Unplugged—a lot of the feedback was coming back like, “I had no idea that it could be this bad.” And so one of our goals is to truly raise awareness around this, you know?

And I think it’s so systemic. Phones are convenient, Tania. It’s so convenient to hand your child, whether it’s an iPad, a smartphone, and you know, TV, and be like, “I need to cook, I need to clean, I need to take a breath after work.” It’s pretty stressful to have two parents commuting, you know, both working, and then coming home to do all of that stuff. It is so much easier to be like, “Sure, take your phone and just leave me alone for a minute.” And so we just—listen, being a parent is hard. I think being a parent today is harder and it comes with the territory. But we have to remember, we chose this and we have to step up to this. And sometimes it just takes resilience and we need to find that to protect our kids.

How the Pledge Works

[Tania] Beautiful. Beautifully said as well. Josette, how does the pledge work? We mentioned the pledge at the beginning of the podcast. How does that work?

[Josette Calleja] Yes. Okay, so it’s pretty easy. So essentially you go online to unpluggedcanada.com and you’ll see a screen that says “Sign the Pledge.” And essentially, you’re making a declaration that says, “I’m going to keep my child smartphone-free until the age of 14.” You can put the child’s name in there—we ask for the child’s name. But if you want to put a nickname for privacy purposes, that’s totally fine.

The pledge becomes what we call an “active pledge” when there are five pledges from the same grade of that same school. And what that means is when the pledge becomes active, we’re able to share emails of those parents to those who have signed, just so we can create some community for those parents. If there aren’t five parents, it doesn’t mean that the pledge means nothing. Your numbers are counted. It’s just not technically active where we’re sharing some information so you can kind of create that community.

The reason why we ask for the pledge, Tania, is because there are some parents that say, “Okay, I just won’t do that, you know, like this is—but your child is nine. I don’t know what it’s going to feel like five years from now.” But when you make a declaration and you put it out loud publicly, I mean, neuroscience tells us that you are more likely to keep that promise, that declaration. And we want it for numbers. The reason why we want the numbers is so that people don’t feel alone. So I can say, “You know, we’ve got over a thousand pledges and it is just growing and growing.” And that gives parents the impetus to be like, “Okay, I’m not the only one. I’m going to sign this too,” right? For the exact same reason we’re giving smartphones, you know, it’s that same philosophy of just like—

[Tania] I love it.

[Josette Calleja] Let’s do this in volume. Let’s do this in the community.

[Tania] And how many pledges have been signed so far?

[Josette Calleja] We have well over a thousand pledges now. And we just started—you know, we only officially launched in September of 2024. So we’re getting traction. We’ve been on CBC numerous times. I’m going to be doing an interview with a news channel in Niagara Falls tomorrow. So people are finding us and it’s super exciting and it gives me hope.

[Tania] Amazing, absolutely amazing. What are the next steps for Unplugged?

[Josette Calleja] To continue to raise awareness and bring the movement across Canada as quickly as we can.

[Tania] Incredible, incredible. Josette, for people who want to find out more about Unplugged, where can they go?

[Josette Calleja] unpluggedcanada.com and they can also follow us on Instagram at Unplugged Canada.

[Tania] And for people who want to find out more about you, where can they go?

[Josette Calleja] I’m at https://callejacoaching.com/.  So C-A-L-L-E-J-A, callejacoaching.com. Or they can just contact me by email at josette at callejacoaching.com.

[Tania] Beautiful. And we’ll just put all of those links in the description below. Your message is so important and I think so refreshing because it offers parents alternatives. So parents can look at all of the information out there and go, “What works for my family and what feels right?” Again, going back to that value system. And I know that there are parents listening going, “This is what makes sense for me and for my family.”

[Josette Calleja] Yeah, I think parents have to follow their intuition more than ever. You know, when it doesn’t feel right, there’s a reason why it doesn’t feel right. And there are alternatives. And I really encourage—remember, you’re not saying no, you’re saying not yet. And then we can move into a gradual entry program that works for your child.

[Tania] I love it. And I think the other thing that I really took from you is we’re also not saying no to technology. The emphasis here is no to a smartphone.

[Josette Calleja] 100%. Exactly. So yeah, thank you, Tania. Have a great day.

[Tania] Thank you so much for your time. You too.