Child Psych Podcast Episode #123

[Tammy Schamuhn] Welcome to the 2025 Spring Children’s Mental Health and Parenting Summit. My name is Tammy Schamuhn, and today, I have with me Dr. Tina Payne Bryson. We will be discussing her new book and exploring all things play—the power of play and how it can benefit children. Tina, welcome to our summit! It’s lovely to see you again.

 

[Tina Payne Bryson] It’s great to see you too! Thank you so much for having me. There’s such an important emphasis on play that isn’t being talked about enough. I’m so glad we’re having this discussion. And of course, play is one of your passions—you love, teach, and live it. So, I know I’m going to learn from you, and I’m really looking forward to our conversation.

[Tammy] Okay, so I don’t think Tina really needs an introduction, but I’m going to give one anyway. For those of you who are new to the fields of psychology, parenting, or coaching, Tina is a New York Times bestselling author of The Whole-Brain Child and No-Drama Discipline, co-authored with Dr. Daniel Siegel. She also wrote The Yes Brain and The Power of Showing Up, and she is the sole author of Bottom Line for Baby. Now, we have her latest book, The Way of Play, co-authored with Georgie Wisen-Vincent, which we’ll be discussing today, along with how to implement some of its strategies. Tina is also the founder and executive director of the Center for Connection, a multidisciplinary mental health practice in Southern California. She regularly keynotes conferences and workshops for parents, educators, and clinicians worldwide. She earned her Ph.D. from the University of Southern California, where her research focused on attachment science, child-rearing theory, and the emerging field of interpersonal neurobiology. I mean, you’re one of the big five when it comes to interpersonal neurobiology. You and Daniel Siegel are my go-tos for anything related to brain science, along with Bruce Perry and a few others.

 

[Tina] Bruce Perry is actually the very first person who inspired me to get into this field. I heard him speak in Texas many years ago, and I thought, I need to understand what he’s talking about. Fortunately, I’ve had the privilege of working with him over the years, and I’m absolutely obsessed with his work.

 

[Tammy] Yes, he’s brilliant! I love his Neurosequential Model of Therapeutics, which aligns really well with your book, especially when discussing the sensory system. I truly appreciate that connection. Now, let’s bring the conversation back to the idea of play. This topic is incredibly timely, especially considering all the wildfires happening in California and how crucial play is for the healing process. I’m sure you’re incorporating this into your practice right now. In your book, you say, When kids can’t talk about it, they play about it. Let’s discuss the natural language of play and why it’s so essential for children’s development. You explore this in much more detail in your amazing book, but I’d love for you to take the lead on this.

 

[Tina] Yes! My favorite way to phrase it is, When they can’t say it, they can play it. What’s incredible about play is that we often view it as just something kids want to do—a way to pass the time. As parents, we sometimes see it as another task on our to-do list. But in reality, play is an entire world inside our children that gives us access to their thoughts, emotions, and experiences. Not only does play help us connect with our children and build deep relationships—what attachment science refers to as mutual delight—but it also helps them process what they’re going through. That could be a major adversity, like being evacuated due to a wildfire or dealing with the death of a grandparent. Or it could be something smaller, like a conflict with a preschool peer. Play also allows children to experiment with different roles and scenarios. For instance, a child might explore what it feels like to have power and control by bossing someone around, especially if they usually feel like the little one in the family. Through play, they not only express what they’re wrestling with, but they also reveal their developmental progress and sensory preferences, helping us understand them on a deeper level. Beyond that, there’s another crucial aspect of play: play and states of threat are incompatible. Think about a bear in the wild—if it’s playfully tumbling with a sibling, but suddenly senses a predator nearby, the play stops instantly. Jaak Panksepp’s incredible research with rats confirms this: play states and threat states do not coexist in our neurophysiology. This means that when we encourage play—whether by creating space for it, actively playing with our kids, or even being playful in everyday moments like brushing teeth—we’re sending them powerful signals of safety. These cues help regulate their nervous systems, reducing anxiety and promoting better sleep, social interactions, and learning. So, play isn’t just about passing the time. It’s a critical protective factor that nurtures our children’s emotional well-being.

 

The Power of Symbolic Distance in Children’s Emotional Expression

 

[Tammy] Beautiful. And I know you talk about the safety of symbolic distance in the book. I read through this again last night—just a quick read—I couldn’t read this book fast enough, honestly. I invested an entire weekend in it. When they talk about the safety of symbolic distance, it means that when it’s not about me, children can safely interact with their own feelings and develop a sense of mastery over them. It’s that “at arm’s length” concept. Would you say that symbolic distance isn’t meant to be taken literally?

 

[Tina] Yeah. And I’ll give you an example from my own childhood, which has become part of the lore of my family—the stories that are always told about me. Apparently, I wasn’t very happy when my sister came along. We’re a little more than two years apart, so I was around two years old at the time. My aunt, whom I adored, was holding my sister, and apparently, I didn’t like that. But instead of saying, “I don’t like that,” or “I want to be on your lap,” I, for some reason, said, “The bear is very mad and angry.” I couldn’t express my own emotions directly, but I could talk about a bear’s feelings. So, symbolic distance is essentially when we create something else to give voice to our emotions. Therapists often use puppets, figurines, or other objects to help children express what they’re feeling without directly attributing those emotions to themselves. This can happen indirectly—like when I said, “The bear is mad and angry”—or through how children interact with characters in stories or play. However, I do want to add a caveat: we shouldn’t over-interpret children’s play as a direct reflection of who they are. Sometimes, they’re simply experimenting. For example, my co-author, Georgie, and I were discussing a video I had seen on Instagram. In it, a father presented his child with an ethical dilemma: a train was approaching two tracks—one where it could save one person and another where it could save a group of people. The child’s response was to pick up the one person, move them over to the track with the group, and then run over all of them. The father was shocked, thinking, “Oh my gosh, is my child a sociopath?” When I asked Georgie about it, she explained that the child was engaging in motor movement and experimenting with cause and effect—essentially, “Something bad has happened. Now what?” Instead of worrying, Georgie suggested shifting the play by saying, “Oh no, the people are hurt! Where are the helpers?” to encourage a different kind of response. As a mother of three boys, I didn’t grow up around many boys, so watching how they played was often foreign to me. Dr. Michael Thompson’s books about boys were incredibly helpful in showing me that what looked aggressive—so long as no one was actually getting hurt—was simply play, not something to be concerned about. I remember buying them nurturing toys, like dolls, only for them to see how fast they could bend the doll’s head in a door jamb. At first, I thought, “Oh my gosh, what does this mean?” But it didn’t mean they were going to be violent—it was just as much a gravity and physics experiment as anything else. So, while symbolic distance and play can help children express emotions, we shouldn’t overanalyze everything they do.

 

[Tammy] Yeah, whenever I do therapy with boys, I always give a warning to parents, saying, “You’re going to hear a lot of noise, and you’re going to hear a lot of things ‘die.’ Sometimes, I might even get tied up in a session—there are handcuffs, fake blood, and all sorts of things. But this doesn’t mean your child is a sociopath.” It’s very common for boys to struggle with impulse control. They have more testosterone, which contributes to aggressive impulses. Play actually helps them work through these impulses so they don’t become violent with other kids or resort to hitting. Additionally, boys tend to be more kinesthetic learners, meaning physical play is essential for organizing their sensory systems. Developing hierarchy is also crucial for boys—it helps them feel safe when they understand who is in charge. This often involves fighting, battling, and role-playing scenarios with a good guy and a bad guy, sometimes leading to “deaths” in their imaginative worlds. This is completely normal. I know some parents worry and say, “We don’t kill people in real life,” but this isn’t the time to enforce that lesson. As long as they’re not hurting themselves or others, it’s okay.

 

[Tina] Just like when we see a little girl playing with a baby doll and saying, “I’m the mommy,” we don’t immediately worry about teenage pregnancy or assume she wants to be a mother soon. It’s just play. You’re absolutely right—aggressive, loud, rough-and-tumble play, even with fake blood, actually helps with self-regulation, impulse control, and overall emotional balance. It’s really beneficial. For any parents out there who are concerned about their son’s aggressive play, I highly recommend Dr. Michael Thompson’s book It’s a Boy. Every time I started to worry about my own boys, I’d read his book and feel reassured. Now, my boys are 25, 21, and 18, and they are far from violent or aggressive. They’ve grown into wonderful, gentle, and respectful human beings.

 

[Tammy] Absolutely. Now, parents who read this book will gain valuable skills for playing with their children. Many parents simply don’t know how to engage in play, and this book not only explains why play is important but also how to do it. It includes many concrete examples to guide them. However, I know that when I give talks about play, about a third of the audience will say, “But I hate playing with my kid!” What do you say to those parents who want to buy into this idea but genuinely dislike playing?

 

[Tina] Yeah, that’s actually one of the reasons we wrote the book. When we were pitching it, we said, Look, parents, here are all these problems in the world. In a post-COVID era, parents worry about developmental issues. Play addresses many of these concerns. But the problem is that parents often tell us, I hate playing or I don’t know what to do. They think, Okay, fine, I’ll sit on the floor, but then what? And listen, I will admit there were times when my boys loved playing with action figures, and they just wanted me to slam them together. It was so boring sometimes. I tend to be someone who likes being productive, and that didn’t feel productive to me—it felt like I was just trying to get through it. So here’s what I would say. Number one: Do not shame yourself. It is completely normal for you not to enjoy playing for a couple of reasons. First, let’s acknowledge the tremendous responsibility of being a parent in today’s world, often with little help and an overwhelming mental load. This is even more pronounced if you’re a single parent. We have so many things to take care of, and then we also have Instagram making us feel like if we don’t cut our children’s lunches into woodland-shaped creatures, we’re failing as parents. There are all these pressures weighing on us. Sitting and playing requires stopping the world and being present, which is really hard when we have a running list of urgent things to do. Number two: Your child’s brain is different from yours. As an adult, your brain has developed in a way that gives you less access to the imaginative, creative thinking that generates dopamine—the chemical that motivates children to play more. We don’t get the same dopamine boost from play that our children do, so it makes sense that we don’t always enjoy it. However, I will say that if you’re not enjoying it, it’s probably a sign that you need more of it. Play is a protective factor for us as well. You’ve probably seen, just as I have, that families can fall into stress cycles where a child’s behavior becomes increasingly challenging. This could be due to a developmental phase, a diagnostic issue, or simply a stressful home environment. Often, families aren’t getting enough sleep, they’re over-scheduled, and playtime becomes scarce. When there isn’t enough connection and joy, behavior problems tend to escalate. But if you start seeing playtime with your child as both productive and preventative, it can help shift your mindset. Play fosters connection, allows children to release stress, and makes the rest of your daily interactions smoother. In our book, we offer strategies that can be done in just seconds—less than a minute. They require minimal mental effort, creativity, or planning. Once you start using these techniques and see how effective, helpful, and actually fun they are, you’ll want to do more of them.

 

[Tammy] Okay, let’s hear an example!

 

[Tina] Okay, so one of my favorite strategies is called “Bring Emotions to Life.” Now, before I explain it, let me clarify something, Tammy. What we’re discussing—and what the book is about—is parent-child play, or in professional circles, dyadic play—a play interaction between two people, in this case, a parent and child. However, that doesn’t mean all play should involve a parent and child. Free, unstructured play—where a child plays alone, with peers, or especially outside in nature—is essential. Kids need more and more of that. What we’re talking about here is how you, as a parent, engage in play with your child and what that interaction looks like. So, my favorite strategy—at least for now, since it changes every week—is “Bring Emotions to Life.” I’ll give an example. When my son was about four years old, he loved tying knots. He would take a rope, tie one end to a doorknob, and attach the other end to the top of a play castle. He was also really into action figures. So, he’d place one action figure on the castle and hand me another one, positioning it near the doorknob where the rope was tied. Then, he’d say, “Mom, get this guy down onto the castle! He needs to help fight the others!” Now, play is supposed to be fun, so I’m fully present and engaged, giving him my undivided attention—even if it’s just for five or ten minutes. I’m not distracted by my phone; I’m really there with him. Sure, I might have a baby on my hip, but I’m still focused and present. At this point, I could simply hook the action figure’s arm onto the rope and slide it down. That would be fine—I’d still be participating. But what if I took this quick, ten-second opportunity to bring emotions to life? Instead of just sending the figure down, I could say, “But I’ve never done this before! I don’t know if I can do it… I’m kind of scared.” By doing this, I’m introducing an emotion that would naturally fit this situation—this is known as symbolic distance. Then, I pause. Now, my son wants my character to reach the castle, so he has to problem-solve. Not only is he hearing emotional language, but he also needs to come up with an emotional solution. So, he might say, “I’ll send another guy up to show you how! He’ll help you down!” Now, he’s creating a relational solution—learning that when someone feels unsure, they can rely on others for help. These kinds of repeated experiences become embedded in the brain over time. Later, if he finds himself in a situation where he feels uncertain, he’ll remember that asking for help is an option. Or, if he sees another child struggling, he might instinctively say, “Hey, I’ll show you how to do it!” All of this happens in just a few seconds. It’s incredibly simple—you don’t have to overthink it. Just introduce an emotion that fits the moment. Another strategy I used in this interaction is called “Make Yourself a Mirror.” This means matching your child’s expressions, voice, or body language to connect with them. For example, when my son excitedly said, “Bring the guy down here!” I responded in a matching tone: “Okay, hold on, I’m coming… but I’m nervous!” My voice reflected the emotional state of the play scenario. You can also mirror physical expressions. If your child is talking like a pirate, you can respond in a pirate voice. If they’re jumping up and down with excitement, you can widen your eyes and pretend to jump too. The key is not to copy them exactly—that can feel annoying, especially as kids get older. Instead, subtly mirroring their body, face, or voice helps them feel seen and understood. This technique even has a neurological impact. Studies using hyperscanning (which analyzes multiple brains interacting simultaneously) show that when people’s brains are in sync, they experience more efficient problem-solving, better cooperation, and stronger emotional connections. So, through just a tiny moment of play, we’re literally strengthening our bond with our children and helping them feel deeply seen and understood.

 

[Tammy] Are we talking about the mirror neuron system, like the motor neuron system? Is that part of this?

 

[Tina] Yes. Yeah. So, you know, it’s interesting—the mirror neuron system is still a fairly recent discovery. For those who don’t know, it was originally discovered in a lab in Italy with monkeys. Researchers mapped which neurons were firing while the monkeys were eating. Then, when the researchers themselves started snacking, even though the monkeys weren’t eating, their neurons fired just by watching the humans eat. UCLA later conducted further studies and discovered that we have neurons in our brains—specifically in the motor strip you mentioned, as well as other areas—that mirror each other’s states. Essentially, if I go to take a drink of water, and it’s not just random movements but movements or actions with intention, my neurons will fire as if I am taking a drink of water too, just by seeing you do it. The idea here is that we are deeply influenced by one another’s nervous systems. As parents hear this, they may think, Oh no, I don’t want my kids mirroring my stress and anxiety! But it’s a reminder that we are the leaders in our families. Our kids look to us to create meaning—literally shaping their own brain development. That said, just to be scientifically accurate, there is still significant debate in the scientific community about the exact role of mirror neurons and what they explain. We believe they contribute to language acquisition and empathy. Research has also shown that the mirror neuron system appears different in individuals with autism. However, there is still ongoing debate about its full implications. But yes, I believe the mirror neuron system plays a role in creating synchrony from brain to brain.

 

The Transformative Power of Mirroring in Playful Connection

 

[Tammy] Yeah, what I think is really interesting—and as a play therapist, I often tell parents—is what happens when you do this. Now, I know you and Dan say, “Name it to tame it,” right? But for a lot of kids, especially those with trauma or avoidant attachment styles—kids who have come from hard places—you can’t always name the feeling directly. They will shut down; they’re not receptive to it.
However, if you name the characters’ feelings through play, I promise you that what those characters are experiencing reflects some emotional conflict the child has gone through in the last few weeks. If we get alongside them—using mirroring, as you mentioned—by mirroring the characters’ feelings, the child gradually starts to accept their own emotions. It normalizes their feelings, helping them internalize the idea that it’s okay to feel this way. Over time, I promise you, they will start talking about their feelings too. This process symbolically sets the stage for you to help them organize their emotional experiences in a safe way. That’s what I took from your section on mirroring with the body, face, and voice. When done through symbolism, kids can accept it. But if you approach their emotions too directly—saying something like, “You’re feeling this right now,” and naming it outright—they may pull away, especially if they’re not used to that level of emotional acknowledgment.

 

[Tina] Right. And you said that so beautifully, Tammy. You’re absolutely right—especially with trauma, words are often absent. The name it to tame it approach, where we simply talk about our feelings, is a very top-down process. This means it requires a well-developed prefrontal cortex, strong language skills, and an understanding of cause and effect to articulate experiences in a linear, linguistic way. That’s a pretty sophisticated task. A lot of trauma and even emotion, however, are more bottom-up—they exist without words and are deeply rooted in our bodies. I’m sure many in your audience are familiar with Bessel van der Kolk’s powerful book The Body Keeps the Score, which explains how our memories and experiences, whether traumatic or not, are stored not just in the brain but throughout the entire nervous system. Our nervous system extends beyond the brain and into the whole body, influencing how we process information. Play and movement are bottom-up processes—meaning they originate in the body. They engage the lower structures of the brain, which are not necessarily connected to language but rather to sensations, feelings, and images. Play is a deeply embodied experience. When we introduce emotions into play and incorporate some of the other strategies discussed in the book, we begin to activate top-down processes as well. This helps integrate a child’s brain, which is the core principle behind The Whole-Brain Child. The goal is to help children develop a strong connection between their downstairs brain (the lower, more primitive parts of the brain) and their upstairs brain (higher-order thinking and reasoning). We often use the analogy of a house—where the first story represents the downstairs brain, and the second story represents the upstairs brain. A well-developed brain has a strong, sturdy staircase connecting the two, allowing for self-regulation. When this connection is strong, children can engage in top-down processing, which enables them to pause before acting, control impulses, be mindful, show empathy, gain insight, and articulate emotions. These abilities form the foundation of social-emotional intelligence and mental well-being. Play is incredibly powerful in integrating the brain and strengthening this staircase. Initially, much of it is bottom-up, just as you described, but over time, children can learn to name and connect their emotions. That’s an incredible transformation—suddenly, a three- or four-year-old who might have instinctively pushed their sister away from their block tower can instead say, I don’t want her to knock it down. Can you keep her over there for a minute? This development fosters more prosocial behaviors and emotional regulation.

 

[Tammy] Yes! So we see improved impulse control and empathy, and then we also introduce words to help shape the child’s story. This integration extends to the left and right hemispheres of the brain as well. Play primarily engages the right hemisphere—the side responsible for emotions, creativity, and symbolic representations of our inner world. Meanwhile, the left hemisphere governs language and logic. When parents engage in mirroring, children start telling stories, and parents name emotions or narrate events (think aloud strategy). This activates the left hemisphere, bringing language and logic into play. I always tell parents that we want to nurture a beautifully integrated brain. That means building a strong bottom-up staircase while also ensuring the left and right hemispheres fire together in synchrony. Since the right hemisphere develops first, children are naturally more right-brained early on. Our goal as parents and caregivers is to help bring the left hemisphere online too. It’s truly amazing—bottom-up, top-down, left-right—all working together to support a child’s emotional and cognitive growth!

 

[Tina] Exactly! You can see how the blueprint of The Whole-Brain Child is woven throughout this book. One of the strategies we discuss is exactly what you just mentioned—we call it narration to integrate. This involves oscillating back and forth between the left and right brain, mirroring the natural developmental process. You’re absolutely right—during the first three years, children are predominantly right-brain dominant. The first 18 months mark the most significant growth spurt in the right hemisphere, followed by a major growth spurt in the left hemisphere from 18 months to three years. These growth spurts continue to alternate throughout development. Even through play, we activate both hemispheres, encouraging them to work together. This matters because it allows children to name it to tame it. It also connects to attachment. In our book The Power of Showing Up, we discuss how a key aspect of secure attachment is having caregivers who help children make sense of their life stories and validate their experiences.

 

[Tammy] Honestly, I could connect all of your books to this. Let’s be real—play integrates everything!

 

[Tina] Yes! The defining factor in whether you can provide secure attachment for your children is not whether you had it yourself—thankfully, because only about 25 to 30% of people do. Instead, it’s whether you have developed what’s called a coherent narrative about your own experiences—what you received, what you lacked, how it shaped you, and whether you can reflect on it. Rather than running from our past and dismissing it as unimportant, or being so entangled in it that it constantly intrudes and triggers us, we aim to reach a state of autonomous reflection. This means we can make sense of our past in a way that allows us to move forward freely. Creating a coherent narrative requires both hemispheres of the brain. The left hemisphere provides language, cause-and-effect reasoning, and a linear structure to our experiences. Meanwhile, the right hemisphere holds our autobiographical memory, connects us to our emotions and images, and gives us a felt sense of self over time. When children play and we use these strategies, we are actively laying the foundation for left-right brain integration. At the same time, we are building secure attachment through mutual delight—simply enjoying each other’s presence. This is just as essential for secure attachment as showing up during moments of distress and helping regulate their nervous system. Over time, we also help children make sense of their own life stories in a way that allows them to process experiences without being overwhelmed or avoiding them entirely.

 

[Tammy] Okay, perfect. We’ll talk more about “think aloud” and how we do that in a bit. But first, let’s take a step back. Through this book, we’re encouraging parents to play with their kids. That’s the first key takeaway. I recommend even just 15 minutes a day, especially for kids who are struggling. If you can carve out 15 minutes, great—even 10 minutes works. Five minutes is a little harder, but I find that kids respond really well to 15 minutes. If you can do more, even better.

 

[Tina] I agree. That’s my recommendation too.

 

[Tammy] I can personally tolerate 15 minutes, even when I’m feeling flustered—I can do anything for 15 minutes. The next step is understanding that there are two main types of play. I believe you refer to them as responsive play and preventative play. Would you say these are the two primary types?

 

[Tina] Yes, absolutely. Regardless of the type of play, the key is to follow the child’s lead rather than take over. For example, if I’m playing with a child and say, “I’m scared to come down the rope,” I’m still following their lead rather than making the play too didactic. If we turn every play session into a lesson, it won’t be fun for us or our kids. It’ll feel like another chore, and they may push back, saying, “You’re doing it wrong! That’s not how I want to do it.” Responsive play is about reflecting what the child is already working through or thinking about and guiding them through it. Preventative play, on the other hand, is more about setting them up with skills that will help them manage challenges. For example, my co-author Georgie, an incredible play therapist, worked with a little boy who was aggressive toward his sister once she became mobile. It escalated to the point where he was even choking her. Georgie taught his mother strategies that play therapists use—this is a big part of what the book offers: translating play therapy techniques for parents. The goal was to help the boy connect what he was feeling in his body to words he could use instead of acting on impulse with physical aggression. That’s an example of preventative play.

 

[Tammy] Okay, and responsive play is more about observing and holding space for the child’s play, correct?

 

[Tina] Yes, exactly—letting the play emerge naturally. Children are working through so many things we may not even realize. Let me give an example. Parents often make assumptions about what is bothering their child, and they’re sometimes completely wrong. A mother once came to my office, saying her preschooler was struggling with severe separation anxiety at drop-off. She was surprised because he had never shown this behavior before. I asked if she had ever directly asked him what was hard about saying goodbye. It hadn’t even occurred to her. When she finally asked, it turned out it wasn’t separation anxiety at all. He said, “My teacher’s voice is too loud, and she squeezes me too hard when she hugs me in the morning.” This was actually a case of sensory overload, not separation anxiety—an easy fix. The teacher simply asked the boy how he would like to be greeted. They decided on a quiet “good morning” and a fist bump instead of a hug. The teacher’s adjusted volume probably benefited many of the kids in the class. This is a great example of how play can reveal what a child is experiencing. If we observe carefully, we might see the child acting out a scene where a loud teacher makes them uncomfortable at drop-off. By being responsive, we can better understand their sensory preferences, impulse control, emotional intelligence, and even experiences they haven’t verbalized yet.

 

Understanding Sports Casting in Play Therapy

 

[Tammy] Absolutely. Now, let’s imagine parents are on the floor with their child, thinking, Okay, now what do I do? We’ve talked about bringing emotions to life and the importance of mirroring—both of which are key techniques. However, the first thing I usually introduce to parents is verbalizing their thoughts out loud, which I refer to as “sports casting.” Parents seem to grasp this concept well.
Can you walk us through what you call “sports casting” from a play therapist’s perspective? I know you might use different terminology. As a play therapist, what do you call it? I refer to it as “tracking and reflecting,” with “tracking” being the primary focus. But let’s dive into this—can you explain it further?

 

[Tina] Yeah, it was interesting. You know, whenever you co-author a book with someone, you have two minds with different ways of expressing things and different kinds of experiences. So it was really interesting. I kept saying to Georgie, “Can’t we just call it sportscasting? Because parents know this term, and it’s really easy to understand. You’re basically just describing what you see.” And she’s like, “No, it’s more than sportscasting.” So, Tammy, we could call it sportscasting plus. Can we say it that way? The reason we landed on Think Out Loud is that sportscasting is literally just describing what you see. But what we’re doing in Think Out Loud is describing what we see and also describing our child’s wishes, intentions, plans, motivations, and feelings—what’s happening on the inside as well. So that’s why we’re calling it Think Out Loud. We’re trying to take what our child is thinking and bring it out loud. Okay, so here’s a really simple example. In the book, we include the example of a little boy building what looks to be a ramp. There’s a car nearby, so it seems like he’s building the ramp for the car. This is super simple and doesn’t require much effort—you could be sleep-deprived and still do this. You don’t have to think too much to say, “It looks like you’re building a ramp and that you want the car to go higher, higher, higher,” or something like that. So yes, it is sportscasting, but you’re also incorporating mindsight into it. Depending on how you define sportscasting, this could fall under its umbrella since everyone defines things differently. What happens when we do this—and I know it sounds so simple—is that the child comes to know their own mind as well. And sometimes we’re wrong, but they’ll tell you.

 

[Tammy] They’ll just tell you, “That’s not how that goes,” or “That’s not what I said,” or “That’s not how I feel.” They’ll correct you.

 

[Tina] Which is kind of amazing, too, because that’s also a moment where they realize, I have a different mind than you, and I can communicate what’s in my mind to you. That’s a valuable moment as well. When we verbalize what’s happening inside their brain—what they’re thinking about, what they’re planning, their motivation, their wishes, what they’re trying to do, what they’re making happen—they come to understand their own mind. They also realize that you understand them, that you see them. And by having these repeated experiences, they build the neural connections to take what’s happening internally and express it outwardly. This simple strategy is actually a huge key, especially in developing impulse control, emotional regulation, and self-advocacy—such as saying, I don’t like this, please stop. These are the kinds of skills being developed when we use this approach. It’s incredible for a child to have you sitting close, giving them your full attention for just 15 minutes and truly joining them. I’ll add one more piece here, and this comes from Dan Siegel, my dear co-author and friend. When I was studying with him, I was in grad school, had a baby, was working on my PhD, studying child-rearing theory and attachment science, and also studying the brain and interpersonal neurobiology with Dan. I was juggling all of that while sitting in LA traffic, trying to get home to my kids. During that time, I kept thinking about what all this means in real life—when my child is having a meltdown or when I can’t get them to cooperate. That’s really how The Whole-Brain Child and our other books came to be—I was applying everything I was learning in the trenches of parenthood. I remember Dan saying once that when we break down what emotional connection and emotional intimacy really are, it comes down to shared attention. And I love that because, at its core, all of these strategies are about creating shared attention. In a very granular way, Think Out Loud is about directing our attention to what our child is doing. This is such a simple way to connect with our kids. If they bring you a stick and excitedly say, “Look at this cool stick!” you can respond, “Wow, look at all the bumps on it! It’s so big. How did you even pick it up?” That kind of interaction builds connection. And this applies to neurodivergent kids as well. In fact, these strategies can be even more beneficial for them. A friend of mine has a child who is autistic, and his passion is sticks. He loves sticks. That’s what he’s into, and she fully joins him in his interest. They’ve built a beautiful bond through that shared passion. And really, this is what we do with our partners too. If we can intentionally share attention—putting our devices down, turning our bodies toward each other, making eye contact (unless you’re dealing with a teenager, in which case direct eye contact might not be ideal)—we create a deeper connection. Instead of face-to-face conversations, you might find that teenagers open up more when you’re side by side—while cooking together, walking, or doing an activity. I often tell my kids, The dog needs a walk. Come with me—I don’t want to go alone. They resist at first, but I say, Just two blocks, and they always end up coming. And once we’re walking, they start talking and talking and talking. It’s so great.

 

[Tammy] So, for anybody listening, if you’re like, “This thing got loud,” I thought we could brainstorm some ideas to teach parents how to do this. When I do play therapy, I always teach parents how to do play therapy at home. That’s a prerequisite because it helps expedite the therapy process. Instead of taking 25 sessions, it might only take 12—it can cut the time in half. One of the first things I suggest to parents is to focus on one skill at a time. I also encourage them to pay attention to the language their kids use. If you try to focus on everything at once, it can feel overwhelming—at least, that’s been my experience. For “Think Out Loud,” we can paraphrase what our kids say. This is about their intention and the narrative they’re bringing into the play. For example, if Spider-Man and the Hulk are having a fight, and your child says, “He’s so mad at him, and he doesn’t want to go with him, but he won’t listen,” you can reflect that back. Instead of parroting their exact words, you can say, “He’s so frustrated that the Hulk won’t listen to him.”

 

[Tina] Yeah! I’d say, “That’s so frustrating—he won’t listen to him!”

 

[Tammy] Yes! And by doing that, you’re bringing in emotion. You’re increasing the intensity of the play through your intonation, which brings the emotions to life. You’re also tracking what’s physically happening in the play. If your child is making Hulk stomp on Spider-Man, you can say, “He’s jumping on him really hard—he looks so mad!” You’re narrating their actions with excitement in your tone while recognizing the emotions involved.
I always break this down into three key aspects:
What is the child saying? We paraphrase and reflect back.
What are they physically doing? We track their actions.
What is their intention? We consider their wishes—what they hope to happen. For example, “He wants him to listen, but it’s not going the way he hoped.”

 

[Tina] Yes! Another way to think about it is inside and outside. You’re describing what’s happening internally—what you’re guessing about their emotions—and externally, what’s happening with their body, movement, and words. I love that you do this because it’s so important when we talk about neuroplasticity and how the brain changes. Just like when I lift weights, the more reps I do, the stronger I get. The same applies here—when parents practice these techniques at home, they’re getting so many more reps in. That’s how change happens faster and in a deeper, more meaningful way.

 

[Tammy] Beautiful. And one of the techniques I love to tell parents—and some play therapists don’t like this technique—but I’m gonna give your audience and my audience this technique. If you don’t know what to say when your child wants you to play—because sometimes they will, sometimes you can get away with just narrating, and sometimes a kid’s like, “You’re Hulk now,” and parents are like, “My God, I don’t know what to do”—just say to them, “What should I do next?” We call that the whisper technique, like, “What should I—?” and that kind of takes you out of the narrative. Then the kids will just say, “He’s gonna tell him that we need to go to the playground right now.” Okay, and then off we go. And if you’re stuck, just ask them—but in a whisper. It takes you out of the play for a second. It’s kind of like a pause, like time-out. “What should we do?”

 

[Tina] Yeah, I love that. I love that because then you’re actually doing dual levels of processing. So you’re in the play, right? But then you’re also kind of reflecting on the play and getting some direction. And so they get to be the creative director, and it goes their way. So that’s actually an incredibly integrating thing to do. It really, again, lets your kid know you want to do it. And yeah, just like, “Teach me how to be the Hulk,” right? That’s so great. And I think, you know, just being silly is so good for us too. Like, we are huge Dodger fans, and my kids loved going to the Dodgers. I mean, some of their first outings were Dodger games when they were weeks old. And lots of times when they were little, they would want to play like the hot dog guy that goes around and throws the hot dogs to the people in the stands. And they would want me to be the hot dog guy, and we would throw things and stuff like that. So, you know, you just join in, and then you come up with a silly accent, or you get really clumsy, and you’re like, “The hot dogs are flying everywhere! Now what do we do?” You just really try to have fun with it. I think the other thing that’s so important, Tammy, is that all the things we’ve been talking about are happening in play. But I think one other thing that I feel is such an important message in the book is this: the reason we called it The Way of Play—obviously, it’s the way to healing, it’s the way to building skills, it’s the way to build relationships, it’s the way to know your child—but it’s also a way of being as a parent, not just something we do. So we can be sitting on the floor, we can be the hot dog guy, we can be the Hulk, we can be the guy coming down the rope, we can do all of these things. But it’s also how we help, how we engage with our children, and just—playfulness and silliness are incredible for eliciting cooperation and reducing the battles. It really is so huge. We can give some examples of that if that would be helpful.

 

[Tammy] Yeah, I love—and I’m not gonna take credit for this—let’s just talk about Patti Whitfler and Tasha Shore. They have a book called Listen that talks about discipline and play. Oh my God, it changed my parenting entirely when I moved from it being—you know, granted, I had read your stuff, so I knew what kind of discipline was good for the brain—but when I realized that if I was playful with my kids, I didn’t have to give a consequence. I could get them to cooperate, and then the power struggles went down. So, like, if I want my child to stop playing with their friends at the playground and they don’t want to stop, we make it a game: “Who gets to the car the fastest? I bet you I’m faster than you!” And we’re being kind of silly. Or if we need to go brush their teeth, I might say, “What kind of animal do you want to be?” I might be like, “I’m a jaguar!” And they’re like, “I’m a rabbit!” Then you start acting like that animal to get them to go brush their teeth. Maybe you have a race like those animals to the bathroom, or we find a silly way of brushing our teeth—like, you pretend you’re the one who doesn’t know how to brush your teeth. So you’re like, “I’m incompetent! Do I brush here? Do I brush here?” And you’re being silly. You’re not serious, and they know you’re being silly. But then they’re gonna show you how to do it. By eliciting silliness—this element of surprise—you activate novelty in the brain. Like, “Mom’s doing something kind of weird right now,” so dopamine’s firing. You’re also using oxytocin because you’re smiling, being silly, and connecting. So that’s priming attachment, and they’re more likely to brush their teeth. We’re just being silly with our kids to diffuse oppositionality and resistance, like, “I don’t want to stop playing at the playground,” which makes sense, or “I don’t want to separate at night.”

 

[Tina] Yeah. And I have parents who say, “I don’t want to do an effing puppet show to get my kid to put their shoes on.” But the thing is, it’s so much less effort for us to be silly and playful and come up with something—even if it’s dumb—than to have the battle. What’s more important is what you just talked about: when our kids cooperate and do what we want them to do, they’re getting the reps in. Their brain is wired for how to do it the right way, right? Just like when they’re toddlers and they pull the kitty’s tail, and you say, “Be gentle, let’s be gentle with the kitty,” and then show them how to do it. They’re getting reps on how to pet the cat the right way. So when we elicit cooperation—getting out the door, putting shoes on, getting in the car, brushing teeth, doing bedtime, cleaning up after meals, etc.—we’re giving them practice doing it the right way. That repeated practice creates neural firing and wiring, leading to automaticity, where they start doing the right thing without a battle. That’s one of the key ideas in No Drama Discipline—if we’re being effective disciplinarians (which I define as teachers and skill builders), we should be disciplining less and less over time because kids are naturally learning to do the right thing. Eventually, we work ourselves out of a job as development unfolds. It’s so powerful, and it can be silly or even dumb. One of the best ways I ever got my kids to do something when they were little was by starting a story. I was exhausted, so the story was probably ridiculous. I’d say, “There were three squirrels, and they did something they weren’t supposed to do, and they got in so much trouble. Put your shoes on and hop in the car, and I’ll tell you what happens next.” Now, listen—I didn’t even know what was going to happen next! It was probably going to be something silly, but they couldn’t wait to find out. That’s using playfulness, levity, and joyfulness instead of command and demand. It’s just so much more effective. And here’s something simple about the nervous system: When something feels good, we want more of it. When something doesn’t feel good, we avoid it. My kids are now 25, 21, and 18. What I love is that they don’t avoid spending time with us. My 25-year-old works full-time and lives about 30 minutes away, but we still have dinner with him once a week. Last night, we drove to his neighborhood, had dinner, and genuinely enjoyed being together. That happens because of countless moments of play and playfulness, of joining rather than commanding, avoiding power struggles when possible, and emphasizing joy. Of course, we’ve had our struggles—it’s not perfect. Life is messy. Sometimes we don’t feel as close to our kids. But overall, those moments of play and connection create a sense of wanting to be together. Their nervous systems recognize it: I like this. I want more of this. I enjoy being with my parents. And that feeling carries over into adulthood.

 

[Tammy] That keeps them close because all that oxytocin is flowing. When kids associate safety, connection, being seen and heard, playfulness, and laughter with their parents, they naturally stay connected. Playfulness is probably the easiest way to reel a child in. I have a teenager at home—she’s 17—and her play is different from my eight-year-old’s. For her, play means building puzzles, having family game nights, watching movies, going for walks, and spending quality time together. When we sing in the kitchen, that’s play for her. That’s the thing—play evolves over time.
Play Isn’t Just for Kids How Parents Can Rediscover Joy and Connection

 

[Tina] It does, it does. And I’ll say this too—one of the best gifts we can ever give our kids is showing them that we have a life outside of them and that we have our own playmates. I have playdates with my best friends, and I have so much fun with my girlfriends. What’s amazing about this is that as we get older, harder things happen. We have family members who develop medical issues, parents who get sick, and people in our lives who are diagnosed with cancer. Difficult things happen. But my kids know that no matter what happens to me, while they will always show up for me and love me, I also have my girlfriends who will be there for me. I have friends, and that’s important. So, I have to cultivate those friendships. I still do fun sleepovers with my girlfriends. My best friend and I probably spend three days a week running errands together, cooking dinner together, and then going home to our own families. We make time for each other. It’s really important that we cultivate our own playdates and our own joy in life. Especially for our teenagers, we need to model what it looks like to continue incorporating play into their lives as an essential part of who they are.

 

[Tammy] Yes, I know Dr. Brené Brown talks a lot about play, particularly in relation to Dr. Stuart Brown’s work on the subject. Parents often ask, What is play? I always say it’s something that makes you lose track of time. You do it because you love it. It’s not goal-oriented. You would do it no matter what, not because you have to earn a prize or get paid. Of course, it’s wonderful if your job allows you to make money doing what you love—if you’re a reader or a writer, for example. But for many parents, play could mean knitting, reading, building model cars, going to the gym, or practicing yoga. Doing those activities with other people who share your interests is how you cultivate community. And that sense of connection is a powerful antidote to loneliness. We want to build a network of people around us, and play helps us do that. As adults, play just looks different. Some people still enjoy the same things they did as kids—drawing, puzzles, reading. My son loves to read, and I know that will probably be a source of play for him for the rest of his life. Beautiful. Well, what’s one final thought you want to leave parents with? The Way of Play is the book, everyone! I can’t hold it up right now—do you have it? I have it on my Kindle.

 

[Tina] Thank you!

 

[Tammy] I have it on my Kindle, and it’s all marked up! It’s such a fantastic resource. It teaches parents how to integrate play into their lives, and I love that your books include so many illustrations. They make it easy to see how things look in practice—what to say, what not to say, and real-life examples that make the concepts actionable. So, what’s the main takeaway you want to leave parents with?

 

[Tina] Yeah, I think the idea is to start small—begin with one strategy, practice it for 15 minutes, and you’ll see how easy and fun it is. You’ll also notice how much your child loves it and feels connected to you. The key is not to make it too precious or overly didactic. Just join in with your full presence and have fun. Find that part of yourself in the process. Everyone is different—some people don’t enjoy imaginative play, and that’s okay. If that’s not your thing, give it a try, but know that there are many different ways to play.

 

[Tammy] Yeah, absolutely. You’ll find the approach that resonates with both you and your child—one that brings joy. Ultimately, kids just want our time and attention. That’s what this is about—we’re simply using their language to connect with them.

 

[Tina] Yeah, I think this is an even better final thought: What your child needs most is you. The flawed you, the exhausted you, the not-at-all-perfect you—but you. That’s what they want most. Play is just one way to give them a part of yourself in a short amount of time. And there are so many ways to do that. So yes, what your child needs most is your presence.

 

[Tammy] Absolutely. And if anyone here has a child who is really struggling—especially with everything happening, like the fires in LA, the chaos in the world—it’s important to seek support. If your child is facing a major challenge, like a divorce, trauma, loss, or a natural disaster, sometimes we need our village. I know your co-author is a registered play therapist, and play therapists can be incredibly helpful in these situations. They provide mental health support in a developmentally appropriate way. They shouldn’t be doing talk therapy with five-year-olds. So if you’re a parent thinking, My child is going through something really big, finding a registered play therapist could be a great option.

 

[Tina] Yes, exactly. And maybe not even for eight- or ten-year-olds. At my Center for Connection in Pasadena and Santa Barbara, California, all of our therapists have been trained by Georgie, who also trains others to become registered play therapists. We have a whole team of professionals who specialize in this work, and we can also help connect families with therapists in other locations.

 

[Tammy] Thank you so much. The book was wonderful, and as a play therapist, I’m so grateful that someone has created a roadmap for parents. We’ve been trying to do this in therapy sessions, but now parents have a resource they can turn to at home. This book is like the playbook for what we do in therapy, so parents can start incorporating these strategies themselves. So, thank you.

 

[Tina] That’s great. Thank you, Tammy. Writing a book is always a labor of love. I was sure I was done—I mean, this is book number six, or number nine if you count my workbooks. I really thought I was finished. But when Georgie and I started talking about it, we realized we had to get this out into the world. So I’m really glad we did. Thank you.

 

[Tammy] Yes, it’s a gift. So thank you. We’ll be posting more about it in the upcoming months as we delve deeper into the content. Thank you so much, Tina.

 

[Tina] Thank you so much. Have a playful week. Bye-bye.

 

[Tammy] Thank you. Bye.