Child Psych Podcast Episode #120

[Tania] Hello and welcome to The Child Psych Podcast. I’m Tania Johnson, a registered psychologist, registered play therapist, co-founder of the Institute of Child Psychology, and, perhaps most importantly, a mom. Today, we are thrilled to have Dr. Danielle Dick with us. Dr. Dick is a professor of psychiatry, the director of the Rutgers Addiction Research Center at Rutgers University, and the author of one of my favorite new books, The Child Code. Welcome, Danielle!

 [Dr. Danielle Dick] Thanks for having me.

[Tania] Oh, I’m so excited! Before we started recording, we were already chatting, and I had to remind myself to hit record because there’s so much I want to talk to you about. The Child Code is incredibly refreshing in its approach because it brings in an entirely new aspect of child-rearing that is often overlooked in the literature we share with parents. Can you tell me a little bit about your process of really delving into The Child Code?

[Dr. Danielle Dick] Absolutely! I am a professor who studies genetic and environmental influences on human behavior, with much of my work focusing on substance use, mental health outcomes, and child behavior outcomes. We know that all of these factors are a product of our genes, our environments, and how they interact. Like most researchers, I’ve spent the past 20-plus years running large research studies and writing scientific publications. But, like you, I’m also a mom. When I became a mom, I found myself raising the very kind of high-risk child I study—highly impulsive, highly emotional. The research I had done became incredibly helpful and grounding for me because I understood what was happening and what I could do to help. As I started to look around—for the first time, really—at the resources available to parents, I noticed something striking. My background is in clinical and developmental psychology, so I’ll admit I hadn’t paid much attention to the information available in the general media or popular press. I had been immersed in my research world. But when I began exploring these resources, I realized something crucial: so much of the research in my field, particularly findings about how much children’s behavior is influenced by their genes, wasn’t being shared with parents. I think this gap is a huge mistake for reasons we can dive into further, and that realization is really what motivated me to write this book—to make this vital information accessible to parents who could benefit from it.

[Tania] I love how our kids are often our greatest teachers. Even as a psychologist myself, I sometimes look at my little girls—one of whom likely scores high on emotionality—and think, “Oh, there it is.” It’s a reminder that, even as a psychologist, I can still find myself saying, “Oh my goodness, there’s so much I need to figure out about this child.”

[Dr. Danielle Dick] Yes, absolutely.

The Role of Genetics in Parenting

[Tania] So, Danielle, why do you think parenting books have, so far, overlooked the role of genetics in how our children develop over time?

[Dr. Danielle Dick] I think it’s because parents feel like, “Well, how is this information helpful to me?” You know, we’re the ones in the trenches, dealing with massive temper tantrums at the grocery store, school refusal, or whatever else might come up. Understanding your child’s genes is often not at the top of the priority list. However, I believe it’s incredibly important because children’s behavior—virtually any behavior we might discuss, such as a propensity for impulsivity, self-regulation, anxiety proneness, fearfulness, and so on—is about 50% heritable. This means that half of the differences among children in traits like impulsivity, anxiety, fearfulness, or extroversion are due to variations in their DNA. It’s essentially the luck of the draw when it comes to the genes inherited from biological parents, which influence how children’s brains are wired. These genetic influences shape what we often refer to as temperament in younger children or personality as they grow older. For parents, though, the idea that each child has their own unique genetic makeup might feel like a challenging leap to connect to the day-to-day task of figuring out how to support them. I think that’s why genetics has been almost entirely ignored in much of the information available to parents. I believe this is a significant oversight for two major reasons. The first is what I call the parenting myth. This is the idea that, by not addressing genetics, we perpetuate the belief that we, as parents, can shape our children into the ideal human beings we envisioned before we actually became parents. And it sounds wonderful. We all had these grand ideas, but unfortunately, nothing about child behavior suggests that we have that much control over our kids’ outcomes. We can’t parent them straight into an Ivy League school or a Nobel Prize, or all the other dreams we might have for them. The other piece is that, when we ignore their genetic makeup and the role that their genes play in their behavior—especially in some of the more challenging behaviors—it can lead us to be more judgmental toward one another. One of the hardest things parents of struggling kids face is the judgment or pressure they feel from other parents. And honestly, we put that pressure on ourselves as well. If my child is struggling or someone else sees my child behaving a certain way, I might wonder, What am I doing wrong as a parent? What is it about my parenting that’s causing this behavior? Why can’t I help them manage it? The reality, of course, is that much of that behavior is shaped by how their little brains are wired—and that wiring is influenced by their genetics.

Genetic Templates and Environmental Interactions in Shaping Our Children

[Tania] So interesting. So, what we’re really looking at here is that our kids come with a sort of template—a genetic template. The question then becomes, how does the environment interact with that template? What happens in that interaction?

[Dr. Danielle Dick]  Absolutely. This is a critical point. Even though I studied genetics, we know that genetics is only half of the puzzle. The other part of what I study is how our genes interact with our environments. This is where parents really play a key role. It’s not just about genetics; it’s also about the environment. What’s crucial is that we know our children’s genes influence how they respond to our parenting. This is the second major reason I believe ignoring the role of genes is a mistake. It leads us to believe there is a “best way” to parent, and we just need to learn all the tips and strategies to bring out the best in our children. But the reality is that our kids are all wired differently, which means they need different things from us and will respond differently to our parenting. As you know, my book is structured in three sections. The first section explains the science behind how our children’s genes and environments come together to shape their behavior. The second part contains questionnaires to help you figure out where your child falls on some of these big, genetically influenced dimensions—and where you fall, because, of course, it’s not just our kids who have genes; we do, too. All our interactions are a product of both our genes. The final section addresses how kids with different genetically influenced dispositions need different things and which parenting strategies work better or worse for them. This is the part that I think is really important for parents: by understanding how their children’s genes influence their behavior, they can see what that “template” looks like. Genes aren’t destiny. DNA doesn’t definitively lead to any one outcome. But when we understand their strengths and challenges, we can modify our parenting to focus on what they need most and how to teach them the things that might not come to them naturally.

[Tania] This makes so much sense, and I love that in the book, you talk about siblings, including twins and identical twin studies, which I find absolutely fascinating. For parents who have more than one child—whether it’s two or three—the question often arises: how come these children are so different when our parenting practices have been similar? A lot of what’s out there right now suggests that if you’re warm, validating, and don’t express high frustration with your child, they’re going to turn out great. These are the things you’re told you have to do. Yet, in your book, you already address the fact that, as you mentioned, siblings come into the world wired differently. You can even give the percentages, but the point is, those siblings are not the same. So, parenting practices need to shift accordingly. Ultimately, it’s the child’s behavior that shapes parenting, rather than the other way around, which is what we’ve been led to believe.

[Dr. Danielle Dick] Yes, absolutely. There’s a lot in there that you’re unpacking, and one of the things we jokingly say in my field is that everyone is an environmentalist until they have their second child. Then, exactly that happens—you realize, “Wait, I’m doing the same things. Why is this one turning out so differently?” That’s when we have the wake-up call, realizing that these kiddos are all wired differently from the very beginning. But then, you know, the other piece that you were talking about, and I find to be one of the most interesting insights from child psychology, is that when you conduct longitudinal studies of children’s behavior and parenting practices, what you often see is a cross-sectional snapshot. This is true of what we see in the world, right? We might see a child throwing a huge fit at the grocery store and a parent using calming, warm strategies. You might also have older generations, who might say, “Oh, permissive parenting. They really need to crack down on that child, and that’s why they’re behaving in this way. They don’t have enough rules and boundaries, they’re not getting into trouble. If they did, they wouldn’t throw those fits.” That’s why we do longitudinal studies, where we look at children’s behavior and parenting practices over time. What we find is that, while many parents start in the same place—trying to do all the right things, such as being warm and nurturing, providing appropriate boundaries, and offering love to their children—over time, children’s behavior is more strongly related to future parenting than parenting is related to future child behavior. What we see is that many parents start from the perspective that if a child misbehaves, there should be consequences, and that will teach them not to do it again. They may try to implement consequences, believing that this will shape future child behavior. However, what we find is that kids who are particularly challenging cause parents to eventually realize that this approach is not working. They may start as parents who, in the grocery store, say, “Stop that right now,” or use timeout as a consequence, but over time, they learn that this approach isn’t effective. They realize that the child’s behavior is pushing them to handle the situation differently because they’ve learned that this new approach works better for the child. This is a good thing. We want to be responsive as parents to our children’s needs. We often do this naturally, but there’s a lot of trial and error and “banging our heads against the wall” while trying to figure out what’s going on. Sometimes, especially with highly emotional kids who can be very challenging to parents, we may do things that make the situation worse before it gets better. I wrote this book with the idea that knowledge is power. I’m trying to get the research out to other parents who could use it, but also to help them be proactive. By understanding how your child is wired, you can implement strategies that prevent some of these challenges and help your child become the best version of themselves—maximizing their natural strengths and gifts.

[Tania] No, I absolutely love it. And it’s funny as you’re talking. So, I have two kids here. One of them we call my “orchid child,” and with her, parenting has to be very soft—very, very soft. She’s highly aware of any of my facial expressions and wants to talk everything through at length with me when things go wrong. Then we have what we call our “dandelion child,” and that’s little Maya. With Maya, if you set strict limits quickly, she thrives. It’s not so much about body language for her. The other one is all about body language, while Maya does really well knowing exactly what’s expected of her.

[Dr. Danielle Dick] Absolutely. The interesting thing here is that it’s not just the way we respond to our kids as parents; we can be doing the exact same thing, but our kids interpret it very differently. This, of course, relates to the way their brains are wired. Each of our kids has brains that are wired slightly differently, sometimes very differently. One of the biggest wake-ups for me was when my son was around 8 or 10 years old. One of the child psychologists I was working with—I’ve found that psychologists and psychiatrists are often the quickest to seek help and work with others in the field because we realize we can all use extra support—suggested something I thought was a brilliant idea, and I touch on it a little in my book too. The idea revolves around the classic dimensions of warmth and restrictiveness, where parents fall on these dimensions you often hear about. For example, are you the authoritative parent, high on warmth and high on boundaries? Or are you the authoritarian parent, with lots of rules and not a lot of warmth? Or are you the parent who is low on warmth and low on rules—the neglectful parent? Or are you the parent who’s high on warmth but low on rules—the permissive parent? These four parenting styles are frequently discussed in the literature. We drew these quadrants out and plotted where we imagined ourselves as parents, and then we also plotted where the other parent fell. Very often, there are multiple adults in a child’s life, so we also plotted where our child—my son—saw each of us falling. We all did this independently, and then we lined up our perceptions. What we found was that we all had very different perceptions of one another’s parenting. Of course, the most important perception is our child’s, because, while you might think of yourself as a very warm parent, if your child doesn’t perceive it that way, they’re having a very different experience than you might be intending. I think this is why we often assume that everyone else’s brain works the same way as ours. It’s a natural human tendency to only know how our brains are wired, but this exercise, when your kids are a little older and you can have these conversations with them, serves as a reminder that the way they perceive their environment is influenced by their own genetic dispositions.

[Tania]  It’s fascinating and makes so much sense, as you say. I’m nodding along, but it’s so often forgotten in the conversation.

[Dr. Danielle Dick] Yes, absolutely. And I think that’s why I wrote this book—I hope it’s helpful for parents because we know these things on some level, right? We’ve talked about how, even when you have a couple of different kids, you start to realize, “Oh, wow. These kids are really different.” But, you know, usually, and very often, as parents, we’re busy and just trying to make it through the day, one foot in front of the other. So, these things aren’t top of mind in a way that is intentional. We don’t always think about how we can actually harness and use this knowledge to make our day-to-day lives easier, strengthen our relationship with our children, and smooth out some of those stressors and day-to-day battles. These battles often result from mismatches between our children’s temperaments and the environments we provide, which are often given with the best of intentions, but may not be a great fit for each of our particular children.

Understanding the Three E’s

[Tania] As we talk about that, let’s discuss the three E’s, which I absolutely love and that underlie each child’s predisposition. 

[Dr. Danielle Dick] Absolutely. The Three E’s are something I use as shorthand because I like concepts to be easy to remember. They are, however, grounded in a substantial amount of literature. These represent three major genetically influenced temperamental dimensions that consistently appear in studies of children worldwide. While they might be called slightly different things in the literature, they generally align with the following:

Extraversion-Introversion: This dimension reflects how much we draw energy from being around other people, such as being in big crowds, versus being more introverted. As adults, we often understand and discuss these traits, but we may not always think about them as intentionally when it comes to our children. This oversight can sometimes lead to mismatches within families, causing unnecessary stress—something we could explore further.

Emotionality: This dimension highlights that some children have a natural tendency toward experiencing bigger feelings. These children are sometimes referred to as highly sensitive. They may be more prone to frustration or fear and are often the ones who seem to “throw fits” over seemingly minor things. Their brains are wired for strong and fast emotional responses, which can be particularly challenging for parents to navigate.

Effortful Control: Sometimes referred to as impulsivity or self-control, this trait evolves as children grow. As their brains develop and their executive functions mature—particularly in the prefrontal cortex—self-control improves. However, this development isn’t fully complete until around age 25. Children vary widely in where they naturally fall on this spectrum. Those with lower levels of effortful control may face challenges such as ADHD, behavioral issues, or impulsive actions. However, these same traits can also have positive aspects, such as risk-taking, which can lead to creativity and innovation. It’s crucial to help children balance these traits, leveraging the positives while learning strategies to manage the challenges.

[Tania] And what I absolutely love is that, in your book, you help parents plot where their kids fall—either high or low—on each of these dimensions: extraversion, emotionality, and effortful control. You also explore where the parents fall on these dimensions, which brings us to the concept of mismatches.

[Dr. Danielle Dick] Yes, in developmental psychology, we talk about goodness of fit. The idea is that kids thrive when there is a good fit between their strengths, dispositions, and environments. I want to be clear that I’m not suggesting we need to completely change our lives to accommodate our kids, but I’ll share an example of how mismatches can create challenges. This one comes from my own experience with my son. I am very high on extraversion, and when my son was little, Saturday mornings were my favorite time to plan activities. I’d excitedly tell him, “Guess what! Today, we’re meeting so-and-so and so-and-so at the park. Remember, they have kids, and these are their names…” and so on. But next thing I knew, he’d say, “I’m not going.” This would often escalate—he might sweep his cereal bowl off the table or throw his shoes across the room. Naturally, my initial reaction as a parent was to clamp down on what I saw as “bad behavior.” I’d tell him, “That is not okay. You don’t behave this way.” After several of these unfortunate Saturday mornings, I took a step back and reflected. I realized that my son is much lower on extraversion; he’s more introverted. Without being intentional or aware of his disposition, I had been planning activities based on what I thought would be fun for us. What felt exciting and energizing to me was, for him, a nightmare. His little brain didn’t yet have the ability to articulate, “Mom, the idea of going to a new place with lots of unfamiliar people makes me really anxious.” Instead, his reaction was to say, “I’m not going,” and express his distress in less constructive ways. This mismatch didn’t mean we could never go to parks or meet friends. It simply required me to adjust my approach. I came to understand that his disposition made some situations feel overwhelming—like throwing a child who couldn’t swim into the deep end of a pool. Instead, I started small. We’d visit the playground at his school, a place he already knew well, and meet one friend. Then, we might add another friend. Eventually, we could visit a new park with a small group, helping him gradually develop the skills and confidence to handle these situations. Now, my son is 17, and while his preference will never be to attend big parties with lots of strangers, he is capable of doing so when needed. This is a testament to balancing his natural disposition with intentional growth and skill-building. I think this highlights the importance of acknowledging our kids’ natural dispositions and loving them for who they are. Sometimes, as extroverted parents of introverted children, we might inadvertently send messages like, “Come on, it’s fun! What’s wrong with you?” or “Why can’t you be like your sibling who has so many friends and loves parties?” These comments, though unintended, can make kids feel inadequate. Instead, it’s vital to appreciate their strengths—like being a loyal, thoughtful friend who values deep connections. While we can help them develop lagging skills, we should also celebrate the unique traits that make them who they are.

Celebrating Individuality: Nurturing Strengths While Encouraging Growth

[Tania] Which I think is so beautiful because it nurtures natural gifts while also helping to gently push our kids out of their comfort zones. It also sends a powerful message to our kids: There’s nothing wrong with you. We’re all learning, developing, and discovering where we shine the most. Instead of focusing on what needs to be “fixed” or making them feel bad or ashamed about something, it’s about working with their unique wiring and celebrating who they are.

[Dr. Danielle Dick] Absolutely. You know, we often talk about this concept called the reaction range. It means that while a child might start with a brain wired with certain natural tendencies, where they ultimately end up can vary significantly depending on the environments they encounter. For instance, you may never transform an introverted child into someone who enjoys being the center of attention, dancing on a table in the middle of a large party—that’s likely outside their natural range of possibilities. However, you can help that same child develop the skills to feel comfortable in situations like attending a school club meeting where they don’t know anyone. They might not love it, but they can manage it. As they grow, they might even be able to navigate events like work parties or social hours with colleagues. It may not be their favorite thing, but they’ll be capable and confident enough to do it. This way of thinking highlights the importance of working with a child’s natural strengths rather than trying to mold them into something entirely different. While we can’t reshape them into anything we want, we can guide them toward thriving within their range of possibilities.

[Tania] It really does transform the decades-long nature versus nurture debate, doesn’t it?

[Dr. Danielle Dick] You know, in our field, we always say the nature versus nurture debate is over—it’s dead. It’s always both nature and nurture. There’s no denying that nature is crucial. It very clearly influences how our kids’ brains literally form, which, of course, helps shape their outcomes. However, it does not determine their outcomes entirely; it doesn’t dictate their destiny. That’s where the environment comes in. When it comes to certain outcomes, like mental health, we sometimes use the analogy of a mental health jar. Imagine a clear glass mason jar—this represents an individual’s mental health. When the jar is full, that’s when someone is actively experiencing problems, whether it’s substance use, clinical anxiety, depression, or impulsivity that interferes with their life. So, what fills the jar? We start with our genetic predispositions. These are the foundational marbles at the bottom of the jar that represent risk factors. If we’re considering something like anxiety, some people have just a handful of marbles at the bottom—perhaps only an inch high. This indicates low genetic risk. Others might start with their jar nearly three-quarters full, meaning they have a much higher genetic risk. However, no one is born destined to experience problems. Even if someone’s jar is three-quarters full, they might never encounter full-blown challenges if they are surrounded by a protective environment. On the other hand, those with a low genetic risk might still develop problems if their jar is filled by environmental hardships, represented as larger rocks. This conceptualization helps parents understand that both genetic and environmental factors contribute to their child’s challenges. For instance, if a child is struggling or has been diagnosed with a mental health condition, parents can see how recovery is possible. Removing environmental risk factors is key. Additionally, building protective factors can extend the jar’s rim, so it can hold more before reaching a tipping point. This analogy underscores an essential truth: it’s never nature or nurture—it’s always both. We are all products of the interplay between our genetics and our environment.

[Tania] What a beautiful visual. I can see it as you’re talking about it. I’m like, “Yes, that just makes so much sense.” Danielle,

[[Dr. Danielle Dick] I will give full credit to one of my colleagues, J9 Austin, who is the leading psychiatric genetic counselor in the world and uses that analogy to help people as they talk through how our genes and environments come together to influence life outcomes.

[Tania] Yeah, so great. As you’re talking, I’m like, “Oh, yes. I’m glad. I can see the marbles. I can see the rocks. I can see the rim. Yes.” Danielle, for all our parents listening in today, what’s a thought that you want to leave them with?

[Dr. Danielle Dick] So, I’m going to return to science for a moment. In the world of research, we talk a lot now about precision medicine and genetics essentially being a core tenant of precision medicine. The idea is that our genes contain a ton of information, and we can use that to move medicine from a treatment-based model. We go to our doctors when something is wrong, and there’s often a lot of trial and error as we try to figure out what will work best. Let’s be honest, we don’t usually rush off to the doctor when something starts going wrong. We try to fix it on our own, wait and see if it gets better, and when it gets worse, then we go in. The idea of precision medicine is that our genomes contain so much information, and we’ve made radical advances in understanding how our genes contribute to so many life outcomes that we can use this information to move from a treatment-based model to one that is predictive, personalized, and preventative. That’s kind of the model I come from in the research world. As a parent, I think a lot, and part of the reason I wrote The Child Code was to think about how we can use that information to help us as parents. There are so many parallels. Oftentimes, as parents, we are just struggling with what’s in front of us—whether it’s the day-to-day stressors or the bigger challenges our children may be facing. We’re trying to figure out, “Gosh, is this just impulsivity? Is it ADHD? Do I have a more fearful or anxious child, or is this a clinical diagnosis?” I think the idea that all behavior falls on a bell curve is helpful. It’s normal for some kids to be at one end, some at the other, and many in the middle. By understanding genetic temperaments and our kids’ dispositions, we can move from a reactive approach, where we’re just trying to deal with the problem, to a proactive one. It can be personalized to each of our kids and preventative in many cases. We can help them develop skills, avoid some of the day-to-day hassles, and help them become the best versions of themselves—which I think, as parents, is ultimately what we want for our kids. I hope The Child Code will help parents with that basic information on their journey.

[Tania] Absolutely. And I think, Danielle, you just summed it up so beautifully. What I love here is that it provides information that’s easily digestible, and there’s actually a plan. It’s like, “Okay, let me figure out where my kid falls, and then how do I work with each part of these components of their temperaments?” So empowering.

[Dr. Danielle Dick] Well, good. That was definitely my goal. Even though I am a scientist, I wrote this book as a parent, writing for other parents. I think one of the biggest compliments I got was from one of my neighbors who knows me through my research. She said, “I read your book and I really enjoyed it.” I said, “Well, you sound so surprised.” And she said, “Honestly, I just know your job, and I know what you do, and I thought it would be really ‘sciency,’ but it felt like we were having a cup of coffee or a glass of wine together, talking about our kids.” I hope that’s the experience other parents have too. The research can be empowering, but it should also be digestible, fun, and applicable to our day-to-day lives with our kids.

[Tania] So beautiful. Danielle, where can people go to find out more?

[Dr. Danielle Dick] I try to make a whole series of resources, essentially digesting the latest research advances for parents and the general public, available through my website, which is danielledick.com. You can also find my book there, or at a separate website, thechildcode.com, or on Amazon and other places where books are sold. I’m also on social media as Dr. Danielle Dick.

[Tania] Beautiful. We’ll put all of those links in the description below. Thank you so much for your time today.

[Dr. Danielle Dick] Oh, it was so wonderful to talk with you, Tania. Thank you for having me. 

[Tania] Thank you, Danielle.