Child Psych Podcast | Episode 101

[Tammy] Hello everyone and welcome to the Child Psych Podcast. My name is Tammy, and I’m a registered Child Psychologist. I’m a mom to three amazing kids, and I’m the co-founder of the Institute of Child Psychology. Today we have with us Michaeleen Doucleff, who is the author of the New York Times Bestseller Hunt, Gather Parent, which I was feverishly reviewing again. This is my second time reading the book. So I was just talking with Dr. Doucleff about this and how much I love this book and every parent needs to buy this book. 

[Dr. Doucleff] Oh, thank you.  

Introduction: Michaeleen Doucleff, Author – “Hunt, Gather, Parent”

[Tammy] So, this book describes a way of raising helpful, confident children, which moms and dads have turned to for millennia, and it also explains how I think North American families can incorporate this approach into their busy lives. Michaeleen wrote the book after traveling to three continents with her 3 year old daughter, Rosie. The Maya, the Inuit and Hadzabe families showing them how to tame tantrums, motivate kids to be helpful, and build children’s confidence and self-sufficiency. She is global health correspondent for NPR Science Desk, where she reports about disease outbreaks and children’s health. She also has a doctorate in Chemistry from the University of Berkeley, CA, and a Master’s degree and viticulture and enology from the University of California and a Bachelor’s degree in Biology. That is such a neat resume! Thank you for being here, again!  

[Dr. Doucleff] Thank you for having me. It’s a pleasure.  

[Tammy] Yeah. So, I mean, this has been, it’s up there. Like I just latched onto your book, so I as a parent who grew up in farming family, your book was just like, yeah that’s what we do. Like, kids are involved in our lives and involved in our work. And we’ve already done a podcast with you about that, and that really came from the Mayan culture and how to get kids to be helpful, but today we get to talk about something different. We’re talking about what you learned living with families in Nunavik, Canada with the Inuit families. And we’re going to talk about emotional intelligence and what they do with anger. And so, but we’re going to start this, if it’s OK with a question. Is that OK? from our audience.  

Question from Our Community:

“Hi Dr. Doucleff, I have a very spirited preschooler who’s three years old. She’s so spunky, funny and creative, but when she’s upset, her feelings are so big. She hits kicks and she even slapped me in the face once. I’m so scared her emotions are taking over the house. I read you worked with families up north who don’t yell at their kids and I want to learn how to parent like that. What do they do differently, and how do they handle aggression? Thanks. “

[Dr. Doucleff] Oh, I just got, like, chills on my back because it’s like that’s where I was –  you know – exactly like, see, almost six years ago. So, I totally understand this question and this situation. Our little girl, Rosie, is just that description to a T she was that and she would slap me in the face quite often, and I have to say that when I we spent Rosie and I spent about 2 1/2 weeks living with a family in Nunavik with an Inuit family, and how I saw what they do in these situations just completely transformed my relationship with Rosie, but also Rosie’s behaviour. So, there’s a couple of things to cover. I mean, this could be the whole podcast answering this question in many ways.

One of the things that is totally different than what I was raised and what I saw and what I was told to do is they don’t talk to the child. So, if the child is very upset, there isn’t a lot of; “Are you OK?” “What’s wrong?” “Can I fix it?” “Why are you crying?” There isn’t. Like, we tend to go to words, right? When children have problems. And in many cultures, including the Inuit, they don’t talk, because they know, especially for little children, that talking, even if you’re being very kind, even if you’re really trying to help, just makes them more emotional and brings the energy up more, right? So, a child that’s dysregulated like that, the energy is just out of control and there’s just this very high energy, right? And so what the parents do I like to think of it as, like parenting with energy. That children mirror our emotions, they mirror our energy. And so instead of talking to the child, you just bring your own energy down and you’re with the child – maybe you kneel down to the child – and you just bring to the child this like I say this like electric thunderstorm of a child this this total like out of control hurricane in the water you bring this like calmness and if you say anything you say it with a very calm voice. 

But you don’t need to say anything, you just need to be there with the child and show them through your own and then the child will come down. I’m telling you, she’ll come down. The energy will come down. So there’s no arguing, there’s no talking there’s no trying to fix it. You’re just bringing this very calm state. And what happens is the child will, maybe they’ll she’ll run off and that’s alright. Let her run off. Let her have like, let her get it out. But probably what will happen is that she will just start to calm down.

I saw the woman that we were with in the Arctic. Her name is Elizabeth she’s in the book a lot. I saw her do this with Rosie, like several times. Rosie had a tantrum in the road. She lay down in the road, started screaming and kicking, and Elizabeth just went over to her kind of kneeled down. I think she whispered something I think she whispered like “look up and see the beautiful sunset.” But it was it was barely audible. And then in the grocery store Rosie had a tantrum and she did this again. She just came over to her and just was with her. I saw the same thing in Tanzania when a little 2 year old had a tantrum. The mom just stood next to the kid, didn’t say anything and put her hand out to the child, just like “I’m here.” So there isn’t this like leaving the child, there isn’t this trying to fix it, It’s just really using your peace and calm to show them how to find that in themselves.  

Emotional Intelligence and Co-Regulation

[Tammy] That’s really beautiful. So as a psychologist, we know the neuroscience here. Like this is that, you know, our right hemisphere, if it is calm, connects with their right hemisphere and it sends signals. We’re designed to pick up on what’s going on in one another’s nervous systems. So if a parent’s coming in there, it’s kind of like the pilot flying the plane. And it’s like there’s turbulence and there’s that pilot comes on, has this calm energy. Just saying, “everyone go back to their seat, put on your seat belt. We’ll be through this in a few minutes.” It’s, you know, granted, we’re not you’re saying they wouldn’t talk if – they might whisper one thing. I am curious –  

[Dr. Doucleff] But you’re right, it is like the presence. It’s like little kids especially, right, but all adults, all children like, feel each other’s vibes, right? Like, vibes is a big word right now. Like, we all bring different energies to a situation. And I think I had this energy of wanting to fix it. Like really wanting it to stop and, like, help her and I realized that like all I was doing was making it worse because she can’t really understand. She can’t understand all those words. And she, you know, to a small child talking is very stimulating and very like energy – it’s a lot of energy. And and I often think of like Charlie Brown. I don’t know you guys watch Charlie Brown like the teacher sounds like “wah wah wah.” And I think to little children, parents sound that way, right? because they’re barely like, even when they’re not dysregulated, right? Their brains are barely keeping up with words and like. And so, like, if they’re dysregulated, there’s no way they’re hearing, like, “how do you feel right now? What can I do?” You know it’s just like, “wah wah wah wah.” So that was the first thing I learned was to change my approach, to come in at it with this peace and this calmness instead of coming at it kind of with my inner, with my “fix it” energy, you know?  

[Tammy] Would they set a physical limit? like so if a child – so for instance – like let’s say this mom who has, you know, has asked this question. She is saying, like her daughter gets physical with her hands – like he gets slapped in the face – like especially and I know lots of parents where their kids are very physically aggressive. Would these families at least like set a limit with their hands, like physically just being, like, not letting the child hurt them? Does that make sense? Like, if the child is coming at.  

[Dr. Doucleff] Yeah. I mean, I don’t think the parent would stick around, you know? Like, I think it’s funny because a lot of times I read these things that say things like, you know, “I cannot let you hit me” in this kind of this very, like, very kind of conflictual I think suggestion. Whereas I think if the child stops the parent in the face, I think the parent would try to first of all get a get away from the child. So I did see, you know, like if you’re not there the child can’t hit you, right? I did see – so there’s lots of examples of this in the ethnographic record, both with the Inuit and with many cultures of toddlers hit parents. Like in every culture, you know, in a It’s like they don’t have that regulation, right? They don’t know how to handle this emotion or their emotional states. And it’s fascinating because in many, many cultures, it’s just ignored. It’s just completely ignored. Yes, you’re right, they wouldn’t sit there and let themselves be slapped 100 times by the child. But it’s not, there’s no big response to it because it doesn’t deserve a response in the sense that like, telling the child “no” or kind of coming at it again with that big energy is just gonna make the child more dysregulated. And so you’re gonna just make, like saying, like, “I can’t let you hit me. I’m not gonna let you hit me.” I feel it’s still there.  

[Tammy] The energy is still there. Like, the battle is still there with them.  

Shifting Perspectives on Child Behaviour

[Dr. Doucleff] You’re actually kind of, I think, provoking them. You know, because they don’t see that any differently than yelling, right? Or just talking. You know, I think it’s like it’s a response that provokes. Now if you say like, “I’m not gonna let you hit me” if you say the same words but in a different way, I think it could be helpful, right? Because you’re bringing again that energy. I think it’s really about that energy. So Rosie would hit me and I would try: “I’m not gonna let you hit me.” I would, and I would try all these things that I learned that I was supposed to say, and really because it hurt me and it was like, very kind of anger provoking in me, whatever came out of my mouth was angry. No matter how hard I tried, Right? You’re angry. It’s really hard to say something without anger in your voice. And so for me, it was really learning; I don’t need to say anything, maybe I need to walk away. Maybe if she’s really gonna be violent with me. But in general – I’ll never forget the first time I did it – she hit me in the face, and I said, – and this is the second part of the answer to this question –  I said I turned to my husband and I said “she doesn’t understand. She can’t help it.” In this very calm, empathetic voice. “She doesn’t understand.” And this is something that the Inuit families would say “she doesn’t understand.” And I turned and I looked at Rosie, and she just had this total expression of surprise on her face because she thought I was gonna get in an argument with her or I was going to start doing whatever I was doing before, and she completely softened. Like my softening to my husband, not to her, because I couldn’t say anything to her because I’m angry at her. To my husband, my softening, softened her immediately, and the whole relationship changed. Like all of a sudden, I became this rock in her storm. Versus like joining the storm, right?  

[Tammy] And you know what you did there? It was really interesting  – which you talk about in the book, by the way, – and this why I’m like, guys, get the book, 7 through 12, Great chapters! –  You thought about her in a different way. Like you weren’t saying anything, you kind of paused and you said that she doesn’t know better. So, your energy is communicating that compassion for her in that moment, and for yourself as a parent being like I have a kiddo who is like flying the plane by herself and she just doesn’t know what to do so I have to be the pilot who’s like “no, I got this like, you don’t know you’re doing, you don’t have a pilot’s license yet”, and that alone kind of your cognitive reframe of her and seeing her in a different way calmed your body and your and that calmness in your body was then exchanged with her energy. Like that there was that change, but the shift happened for you like up here. “I saw her differently.” This is, “she’s a little child, she doesn’t have those skills.” 

[Dr. Doucleff] Yes, they’re exactly right, and I think that’s the second huge like, “what are the differences?” is that I think we have some ideas about little children in our society that are kind of not helping us and making it harder, so I, you know, we think that little children are pushing our buttons, they’re manipulating us, that like, clearly somebody hitting you in your face, you respond in anger even with a little kid. “How dare you, how dare you hit me?” You know? And I think in many cultures, including the culture, they view small children very differently. They view small children as these like irrational, illogical creatures that don’t have understanding. They don’t know how to handle this situation. It’s nothing about the parent. It’s just about the child not having understanding, not being at the point where they know what to do with this big emotion in their minds. And I think this is a much more pro social view of children, right? It gives them – and that allows you to respond to them in a way that’s more empathetic and more compassionate versus “she’s manipulating me.” “She’s pushing boundaries.” “She’s pushing my buttons.” “She’s doing this on purpose,” which we have no data in our society to support this idea. 

I think you’re exactly right. The goal, I think is somewhat to have less anger inside you, that then allows you to respond and react with this softness and this compassion and empathy, which then in return, the child responds with compassion and empathy right with the softness, right? And it’s like this cycle in the right direction – in a calming direction – versus the cycle in an angry direction. So, I think you’re exactly right, this shift in mindset of children’s motivations of why they’re so angry, why they have a tantrum, can totally change the relationship because it changes the way you respond to them, right? 

[Tammy] Well, I love this quote. It’s from one of the mothers, I think, because you had so many quotes of beautiful things that they said and it was “if the child doesn’t listen, it’s because she is too young to understand and she’s not ready for the lesson.” Like, I love that. Like, they don’t have that yet. And so I guess the next step too – and you talk about this – so we’re trying to come in with calm energy, they don’t believe in yelling in Inuit. That’s kind of the first lesson I took from your book on this section was on emotional intelligence is literally like the yelling is the first thing we have to address that like that is not going to be helpful as other than it’s just it shuts down communication and exasperates the child.  

Managing Anger in Parenting: Emotional Awareness and Productive Responses

[Dr. Doucleff] Yea, and I think it just teaches you to yell, you know? I mean, I think it, I think they see it as, like one, its a very immature response to to anything that if you’re yelling like you kind of so they see maturity and the development of maturity as being able to handle situations in a productive way, right? And that yelling is often very unproductive, and they see it as a very unproductive response. And so yeah, yelling, they see as like, just going to make the situation worse, especially with a small child, you know, or it’s going to, like, interject fear into the child. And you know, having the child be afraid of the parent is not a good relationship in their minds, right? You can motivate children with fear very well, but what is that doing to your relationship with them? Right? And so yeah, for sure, like yelling and anger are kind of these emotions that aren’t productive in their minds. And so again, it gets it comes back to this idea of, okay, well, how can I interact with people to have less anger? Because if once you’re angry, it’s very hard to suppress it. You everybody knows that, like, once you’re like, in a state of, like, “I’m so angry” it’s really hard to you need time. You need to go do something to settle yourself down. So it’s coming at it from this, this perspective of, can we view other people and children in a way in life, in a way that creates less anger in the first place? 

[Tammy] Yeah, I think one of the biggest lessons I’ve learned as a parent, especially recently, it’s funny, when my kids were young, I didn’t get triggered. It was the weirdest thing. It’s not till they got to tweens, like my older two or tween, what? Teen and a tween, that’s when I started getting triggered. And yeah, everyone’s usually little ones. I have no I was a kindergarten teacher before I was a psychologist. So like little ones, I know, I know they’re impulsive and they have big tears and big feelings, but it’s interesting when I know they have that thinking brain, and then they do these things. I’m like, you have executive functioning, so I know you know better. And this isn’t like, you know where you’re limited in I mean, they are limited in their skill sets, but still, knowing that brain is much more mature. That was harder for me as a parent, and my superpower this summer being at home with my kids full time the whole summer has been like, if I notice a visceral reaction, like, I know you’re big on in the book, you say like, this isn’t about suppressing your anger or managing it. It’s either, it’s just not getting there in the first place. Or being like noticing it, and my superpower is literally being like, this is not a time for discipline. I need to walk away and come back to this when I’m calm, like, I can’t, like, I can’t even be here right now, because nothing I do is going to be productive. I’m either going to yell, or say something that’s hurtful to that child, or they’re going to check our because they’re scared of me, because they can feel my energy. 

Anger as a Gradual Process

[Dr. Doucleff] Yeah, you know, I think that’s a wonderful point, like, in many cultures, anger is kind of this endpoint, right? And that there’s this, like, one of the neuroscientists said it really beautifully, like there’s this long horizon to get there. There’s, like, all these other emotions that happen before people get angry, right? You can feel kind of annoyed, you can feel kind of uncomfortable, you can feel kind of frustrated. I think in the Thai language, there’s even like degrees, like rising up, like I’m I’m feeling level one, level two, level three, right there. There’s this recognition that there’s a lot more that happens in our bodies and in our minds before we explode, right before we really feel anger. And I think for me, it’s learning just what you said is learning to feel like, “Ooh, I’m starting to feel kind of frustrated. I’m starting to feel kind of overwhelmed.” I’ll say, sometimes I’ll be like, I’m feeling kind of overwhelmed here, like, maybe we can turn the radio off, or maybe we can like, “I’m gonna go take a walk outside” and like, kind of catch yourself beforehand, and then you can deal with whatever the situation is way more productively than like you said, like bursting out and yelling.

And so I think it is learning about that that we don’t the old school way of thinking about emotions is that certain situations trigger a certain emotion. A kid slaps you in the face that triggers anger, right? But actually, emotions are these learned ways of interpreting things in our bodies and our mind and experiences, and we can change them, and we can find ones that are there and identify feelings in our bodies earlier, right? We have a lot more control over our emotions than we realize if we think about them as like happening over time and not these just trick trigger unangary, right? There’s, like, a lot more happenings. I love that. I mean, that’s, that’s exactly what I think an Inuit family wants to teach their child, right? That like to identify that feeling and then walk away if you need to go outside, go collect some moss on the that’s what they would say. “Go collect some moss on the rocks.” 

Teaching Emotional Intelligence

[Tammy] Well, they had all the images where I’m telling parents, like, go check this book out. Because there was, I took some of my favorite ones where I was like, Oh, I love and I love how they’re framed. So some of these, like I said, everyone, check out the book. And then she goes into much more detail about these strategies. So the only it wasn’t the only strategy was, like, staying calm. Because sometimes, like, we need to take that energy and put it somewhere with our kids. And so I really loved in your chapter on encouragement. So part of emotional intelligence, instead of forcing kids, we encourage them. And part of that is like, when misbehavior kind of comes up, there’s some strategies they do which are really interesting. So the the ones, and I’m curious, which is your favorite, or if you have some, there was parenting with catch or toss. So when a child has that, like, aggressive energy, they move their bodies like they’re just, like, I need to move them like they almost it’s like an outlet for the child. I always tell parents to play with your kids when they’re prickly. I was like, chase them, kiss them. Like, pick them up. Yeah. Airplane them, like, go on the trampoline. And parents like, and then they always say, like, well, doesn’t that reward the behavior? And I’m like, It calms the brain down. That’s the whole point. We’re trying to calm the brain down. 

[Dr. Doucleff] You’re teaching, that’s what we’re teaching. We’re teaching their brain to calm themselves down, right? And and I think, does it reward? I don’t, I don’t think that there’s that much awareness. You know what I’m saying. Like, I don’t think the child is connecting that right there, especially the young, young ones, you know, maybe when they get older, maybe then you would start to think about it. But you see this in every culture. So I’ll tell you, you see every culture that I’ve been to. You see that when children, little children, so we’re talking about toddlers, babies, get really upset, there’s a lot of physicality that gets done. So in the book, I think the little boy scratches the grandmother? 

[Tammy] Yeah, she draws, there’s blood drawn to the mom’s face. I think they’re just like squeezing so tight. And then there’s an airplane moment, like the airplane them.  

[Dr. Doucleff] Yeah, and then she grabs him and puts him like an airplane, and swings him around. And then he calms down. It was, it was really  

[Tammy] And the behaviour just passes. And you, that’s what you talk about in the book. It’s like, just wait for the behavior, it will pass, and just trust it’s going to pass. You don’t need to lecture and talk about it. And it passes.  

[Dr. Doucleff] It passes. And then one of the key things in I talk about this in later in that section, is then the parents are doing these things during, like, calm periods when the child can think and the child can process things, to teach the child not to do these behaviors, right? This is not just about like, oh, we let it pass and it’s done, right? There are these very intentional strategies to then teach the proper behavior. It’s just not done in those moments where the child is dysregulated. Where the parent is dysregulated, right? And because teaching can’t happen in those moments. 

[Tammy] And you gave this example in the book about, like, say, a child’s hurting a pet and all by the way, any parents listening this is normal for young children to do this to animals. That does not mean you have a sociopath or a psychopath on your hands. They’re just learning about autonomy and like, cause and effect. And so anyway, I remember when my son was little, and he wanted to, you know, like, hug the dog, but so hard, like he would the dog’s gonna bite him, like he is, he’s grabbing him, or he, like grabs his face, or like he hurts the animals, and again, like they don’t understand that it hurts yet. And one, depending how escalated he was, I might go one of two ways I might, and which you talk about in the book. First, you might if, long as you’re calm as a parent, you can redirect them to just show them, like, Ouch, that hurts him, and then show them how to pet the dog. Or, if you’re escalating is, walk away, remove the child, just walk away and go do something else, and come back when everyone’s calm and then show them how to be nice to the dog, later. 

Waiting for the Dust to Settle: Finding Effective Moments for Teaching

[Dr. Doucleff] That’s right. There’s this, like, practice mode, I think of it, right? It’s like, okay, when things are calm, I saw the grandmother. Actually, it’s the great grandmother. So the little toddler kept twisting the tail, I don’t know, just like he, like you said, they want to interact with this amazing creature, right? But they don’t know how. Again, it’s this thing of like, they don’t know how. And so the grandmother waited, and then she called the little boy over to this poor dog. It was like, oh, no, you’re bringing my torture close to me. You know. No, it was, it was fine. The dog was fine. And he then she would, like, show him, like you said, like was not talking. It was just like, like this, like this. And I saw this mini cultures like this, like this, with the chicks, little baby chicks. Rosie wanted to just squeeze the baby chicks. And, you know, because it’s, that’s what you you want to hold on, you know? And the the mom and, like, showed her, like, no, like this, and like, you know, put the chick in the hand and and the little boy would pinch the dog, and then she would take the dog away, and then she’d try it. Later on, she’d come and do it again. And like, I think I saw her do it like, three times, and he still, like, was not like, he was still kind of not rough with the dog, but she just kept she was like, I’m gonna teach this kid like, you know, gentle. 

[Tammy] And that’s the same thing I was thinking with, like a little, like a little one who’s like, grabbing your face like that. Like, what I might have done, maybe just kind of, kind of paraphrasing, what this whole book kind of put into place is later I might be like, soft hands, soft hands. Like, just and I would do that with my kids, soft hands, soft feet. But if I’m escalated, I can’t do that. I have to do it after. And I think that is like the biggest defining point in this book, is a parent being able to say, is this a teachable moment? Not if I’m escalated, this is not the time to do it. So the teaching or the child’s to escalate it, they won’t take the lesson in yet. I always say, wait for the dust to settle. We come back to the discipline after and discipline is just to teach. It’s not punishment, it’s teaching. So we teach it during connection, and we can’t do that if we or the child are escalated. And that is what I’m hearing. A big message of your book on emotional intelligence, is this one of the key parts of this culture. 

[Dr. Doucleff] Yeah, that you react to the child’s outburst with emotional intelligence, right? In the sense that you are not going to escalate it. You’re not going to engage in it. Like, how? Like, if I always say, like, if somebody at your work has an outburst like that, do you jump in and start “What can we do? How can we help you?” become this, like, you know, kind of problem solver? Or do you actually, like, leave, like, “look, I’m getting out of this situation because this person is not able to have a rational conversation with me.” It’s the same with a small child, right? It’s like you react to them in a way that you want them to react in the future, right? And then later, the lesson can be taught. I mean, there’s so many opportunities to teach kids these lessons with fun and, like you say, connection and, you know, I think another thing is, is to respond with a genuine like, if she hits you, one of the things that really helped me was just to be like, Oh, that hurts, you know? Like instead of anger, whatever’s below it that hurts me. It hurts my feelings. It hurts my body. You know, anger is this, like, very kind of higher level emotion. There’s something always underneath it, right? 

[Tammy] Yeah, we call that a secondary emotion. Usually it’s secondary, unless it’s about righting a wrong, like injustice. That’s usually the only time it’s a primary emotion is around injustice, like righting a wrong, like, usually it’s something else, much more vulnerable that we just don’t want to, we want, I don’t want to look at. 

[Dr. Doucleff] Right, and with our families, I think there’s always a vulnerability, right? And it’s like, once I was like, “oh, this hurts me. This hurts my feelings, this hurts my body.” And I would once I learn to be calm, then I could say that to her. I could say like, oh, that, you know, “that really hurts me.” And, I have it on a recording for a radio story was amazing. I did it and I recorded it, and I was like, “ow, that really hurts me.” And then I asked her, “do you want to hurt me?” And she was like, “Oh, No, Mama, I don’t.” And I don’t think she actually was connecting this idea that. Hitting me hurt me. There wasn’t that much, right?  

[Tammy] It was just a reaction. It was probably a, you know, a reaction – and that’s not intentional.  

The Key for Emotional Intelligence

[Dr. Doucleff] A reaction, yeah. There was no like, but she was like 3. I think that was a big breakthrough when she was like, “I don’t wanna hurt Mama.” And then she would actually go through these periods where she would almost hit me. And she’s only three. So she’s controlling herself, right?  And sometimes she would kind of hit me or she hit my arm or she kind of do these, halfway things. And it was like this progress of like, “I don’t wanna hit my mom, but I don’t really know what to do with myself.” And it was really beautiful to see. I mean, what is striking to me and what I think about often is in many cultures, children by the time they’re 4-5 have amazing emotional intelligence. Like just as much as me. And that they can really learn this to not respond. To walk away to, to calm themselves down, if the parents and the people, the adults around them, are doing it. 

[Tammy] Beautiful. There was, so you model it. That’s the kind of the key for emotional intelligence, is that parents own ability to make those choices in hard moments and to walk away when needed and identifying like this is coming up in me. And then that’s what all that child starts to learn as being like, “OK, this and this is how” and they are also interesting how they divert energy. They teach the kids that when I have energy that’s escalating, I put it somewhere – so they do these really neat things where you put down, they either kick them outside or they turn the crankiness into contribution. So they will give them a task. – and as a teacher, I know this to be true – when kids were escalating, I used to send them with a note to the principal’s office being like “it’s really important, you have to give this to the principal. It’s top secret, though.” So as you see them on, like, give them something to do and get them out of the classroom. Like, just give them something visceral. Or you’re saying put them, they put them to to work during doing it, like helping with a meal or  

[Dr. Doucleff] Or go outside, get something like, you know? like I’m really into right now like task rabbiting, that’s what I call like, I think kids need it. “Go across the street or go to across the street to the neighbors and pick this up” or. “Rosie, can you run upstairs and, oh, my gosh, I totally forgot.” Like, you’re right. Give it, make it critical. Right, like you gotta tap into that. I love that. But yes, I think sometimes we don’t realize that children are cranky cuz they don’t have a purpose.  

[Tammy] That’s a good reframe. It’s like, yeah, they need it.  

[Dr. Doucleff] You know, because I get cranky at work when I don’t feel like I have purposeful or they’re being put to use, you know, like, hey, I’ve got all these skills, like Western parents totally don’t use this amazing tool of purpose. Like, children want to contribute. Children want to have a purpose in their life and it motivates them and it makes them feel good and it’s a win-win, because then you’re teaching the child to help you, right? And you’re teaching the child to be useful, and what I’m writing about right now is when you send them off on these little quests, these little tasks, you’re also teaching them to be autonomous, right? And take adventures.  

Children as Contributors: Building Capability

[Tammy] Absolutely, well, I think it fuels a sense of belonging in the family of being like you are a valuable – and you wrote in the first third of your book, really talks about. And we had we asked anyone listening can listen to our first podcast on this because we talk about the  Mayan families and how they get kids helping and being we’re on a farm. And my kids have very high self-esteem regarding their autonomy and like feeling like they’re capable and like people are like, “how did that happen?” I’m like, it’s not sports. That’s not what did it. It wasn’t extra curriculars. It’s that they cook meals. They mow the lawn, they pick up sticks with us. They feed animals like I just had my kids watering plants, walking the dogs, putting groceries away. Like, they help with every aspect of our house. and so right, but like they, they just feel so – I always say like “you guys are going to be so ready to live on your own one day. You guys already know how to run a household, like this is amazing.” And I always tell them we can’t run this house without you. We couldn’t. I don’t think I.  

[Dr. Doucleff] Yeah, they’re real contributors. I mean, I think that’s where sometimes I was going wrong was like I would give her these tasks that were kind of fake or they weren’t really useful, that useful. And what I realized while writing this book, that it’s really about small tasks at the beginning that are very real. So you’ve created like real contributors in your house and and it helps you, but it helps, like you just said, it helps the child become a human being, right? Because we are human beings are just these incredibly cooperative creatures. That’s what’s kept us alive, and I really think it’s a fundamental need in a child’s life to feel like they’re contributing, that they’re helping other people. And the other thing that’s doing is teaching them how to have a healthy relationship, right? Because our relationship is about giving and taking, right? It’s not just about taking something from somebody, it’s also about enjoying giving to them and helping them. And so you’re also giving them that gift when you have them run outside and grab the tomatoes for dinner or feed the dog or, I mean just. I always say like one or two things a day when you get started with it is all they need. And then they kind of snowballs, you know, and they will want more and more. And it is a great tool for teaching kids to calm down. I mean, I do it to myself, right. I get really frustrated at work, and sometimes I’ll just be like, “I’m really frustrated with this” and I’ll be like, “I gotta go out the garden. I gotta go take care of the chickens. We have chickens. I gotta go outside. I gotta do something else so that I can get that rationality back into my brain.” Get that pause. Right. Take that pause and let it calm down.  

“Just Add Water”: Nature as an Ingredient for Regulation

[Tammy] And they teach, they just simply kick them outside sometimes. And I always say when kids are struggling with disregulation, just add water. Just, I’m always like my grandma taught me that at a very young age. With us, it’s being like I don’t care if it’s a bath tub, the shower, the sprinkler if you can. And I would say the same for add trees, add mud, add dirt, sand, the sky. We’re designed to be outdoors. So when we have kids who are struggling rather than jumping to discipline, like, just put them outside and see what happens.  

[Dr. Doucleff] Yeah, I mean, literally every culture we, I mean the Hadza they live outside which, but like the Maya, the moms would just stick the toddler out on the porch and then she’d watch him, right? She’d be there. But, like, screaming toddler goes out on the porch, just sit down outside for a bit. And like, I have this great story. It’s not in the book. We went camping with this family that struggles a lot with tantrums and it was like 2:00 in the morning and this little girl was just screaming and we were in a campground. So I’m like, you know, 10 feet from them just screaming her brains out. And the parents are in there. I don’t know what they’re doing. I don’t know what they’re saying. It’s like 10/15/20 minutes go by. The child’s still screaming. Everybody’s awake by now, and then the dad says something. I think he’s gonna run out to the car to get something and he takes the kid out of the tent. Well, there’s like stars everywhere. There’s, like, you know, and I think it calmed the dad down and the kid immediately stopped crying. Yeah.  

[Tammy] And you talk, or you point their attention, you say parenting with awe. Like, “how bright are the stars?” “look at that plant growing in the crack in the sidewalk” like point their attention to – it’s kind of like how we use gratitude sometimes too, like during hard moments we can and it’s instead being like, notice the beauty in the world like that can help regulate our nervous system.  

[Dr. Doucleff] The Inuit families do this all the time. Every time that little boy Caleb in the book had like a tantrum, the grandma would take him to the window and point out to the water. And you know, I started doing this with myself. So like, every time I felt angry at Rosie, I would like look for something, a butterfly, a moon. And the moon up, you know, like something to like to shift, exactly to shift this, what is Lisa Feldman, the neuroscientist? She said to replace this very kind of negative emotion with this very positive one, you can replace it! You really can. But you have to practice at it. Your brain will not grab that positive emotion, if you haven’t had that positive emotion a lot at other times. So she talks about practicing positive emotions with your children and the Inuit did this all the time. Like you’re out and about. “My gosh. Look at that bird. Have you seen a bird like that before? This is so beautiful.” And then the child’s like ohh, they get into it. They love it! or “Oh my gosh, there’s the moon. The moon’s out at, like, 2:00 in the afternoon, why is the moon out at 2:00 in the afternoon?” It’s not, you know, like in these other moments when you’re not upset, they’re not upset. You teach their brain to find the beauty, to find the awe. And then when they are upset, they can find that emotion in their brain because the brain knows and has experienced it and does believe “wow, look at that tree and look at this.”  

Practicing Gratitude: “The Antidote to Stress”

[Tammy] And I think we do the same with gratitude. Like, that’s another thing. I know, there’s so much research on gratitude. And part of that is being like the antidote to stress. Is that during adversity – which we’re going to have – and things are gonna stress us out and we can we practice gratitude when we’re not stressed first. And that’s what I’m hearing, like, but then eventually when we come up with adversity and something happens, we can’t avoid hard things. But like we put our focus on gratitude as an antidote. And you’re saying in the book and these cultures, part of that emotional intelligence is emotion replacement or at least making you make space for the feeling, but then you’re like, “I’m gonna divert my attention to gratitude or to awe or to, you know, beauty in nature”. And that is a great coping strategy and it’s so interesting because all of this is done really through the lens of discipline during hard moments. People like “I thought this podcast is about emotional intelligence” and it’s like, well, it starts when kids have big feelings and when they’re little, those big feelings are anger and frustration and sadness and then… 

[Dr. Doucleff] Discomfort, I just, I think I just feel like just discomfort in their bodies. And then it just comes, it just leaks out. But I think that the thing I didn’t understand was that, in order for me to be able to access those feelings – there’s a great anecdote Lisa Feldman Barrett gave me. She said, you know, I was on, like a zoom call – this is a while ago, before the pandemic, and we all in zoom – and you know, it kept, like, stopped working. It kept jumping. It kept stalling. And she said I just felt honest frustration in me. And I kind of wanted to just get mad. And she said, and then I remember the great how to how to feel grateful. And so instead of just letting myself get all this anger, I started thinking about “wow this is so amazing. I’m talking to this person in China.” Right, like. Even though it’s not working, how incredible is this that I can talk to this person in China and we’re having this amazing conversation. And she said, you know, but I could never have done that – shifted my frame of the situation – if I hadn’t practiced having that feeling first over and over. So I always say like, for me to really get my anger to a reasonable level in life – because I had a lot of it before – I would spend about 5 minutes each day and often with Rosie 5 minutes just finding something to be grateful about or have awe about. Just letting my brain know this feeling is there and I can use this feeling, and this is a wonderful feeling, and this is something we can access really anytime we want, you know? and I’m not suppressing the anger, I’m just letting another emotion be there too.  

[Tammy] Yeah, and you’re – or you’re putting your attention, because often we ruminate like we because our thoughts get the best of us, and we start thinking those things like “this needs to stop, like, if she doesn’t stop this paper, I’m a bad mom, and everyone’s looking at me”. Like we have all these thoughts that come in, then it escalates what’s going on, but there’s no such thing as multitasking. So at the end of the day, it’s attention shifts that, as people need to know is like you can only focus, technically, on one thing at a time, so where does your attention go? And that’s what you’re teaching kids using these methods we’ve talked about. You’re teaching them to shift their attention to their body, to nature, to gratitude, to, you know, whatever it is, this is how we pet the dog appropriately, all these things, and that will eventually, as they become adults, because we’re teaching emotional intelligence, they will learn to do this on their own eventually. 

[Dr. Doucleff] Yeah, and I think it will become part of their day to day life. Of like we do awe, we do gratitude, we get upset, but we do these other things too, right? And like, it’s a mix, right? That we’re these really complex creatures and emotions are not these hardwired things in us. You know, somebody does x and I have to be angry, you know, that’s what I really thought. I mean, that’s what psychologists often will tell people, you know, the old model is like, like, the Inside Out movie, right? And it’s like, it’s not that way that we can it is a learned reaction to feelings in your body to the situation. You know, you’ve learned it, and you can learn to react and have it and have a different emotion to those same situations, but you have to experience it first. 

[Tammy] Beautiful. Thank you so much for this conversation and everyone the book, again, is Hunt, Gather, Parent. And you read this book, you’re going to be a better disciplinarian. You’re going to have more helpful kids in your house, that is for darn sure. And I just think overall, you’re just going to be a more regulated parent who’s not going to judge yourself so hard, or your child for that matter. I think you start, you teach parents to see this whole parenting thing in a different way, and it comes from very old knowledge, which I love. Like this like embedded in our DNA, we just have pushed it all away with common, you know, with social media and what our parents said. But I think this is the way we were meant to parent, which is what I love. As it gets down to our roots as who we really were as human beings, we’re just finding our way back to it, which is what I love. 

[Dr. Doucleff] Yeah, I think so, that’s beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for having me.